[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: What is wrong with this picture?
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Fri Apr 6 08:11:00 PDT 2007
I think my point is that an initial charge of molestation should not
cause that much harm. It's an education issue for the public at large,
really. Charged does not equal guilty.
I also agree that judges are fallible. I just don't know what data the
judge was looking at when he made his decision. I don't know what the
circumstances of the alleged crime were, and I don't know what
mitigating factors there might be. I could speculate all day about how
wrong the judge might be but without any evidence to back it up it's
pretty pointless.
Also, for every case where a judge screwed up and was too lenient, I'm
sure a case can be found where the judge screwed up and was too harsh on
someone who ended up being innocent.
If the judge is being swayed overly much by the fact that the defendant
is religious, then I think that could be a problem. I just don't know
enough to second-guess the judge on this.
Paul
Art Deco wrote:
> Paul,
>
> We are in some agreement, especially about false accusations in
> divorce cases, but I am puzzled by your statement:
>
> "I just think that we have to balance the risk of further harm to
> children if he is guilty with the possible harm done to this man's
> whole life if he is innocent."
>
> I think most of the harm is done to an innocent accused when the
> charge is first made. If the accused is ultimately found to be
> innocent, then some of the harm may be mitigated. I do not believe
> that keeping the son away from his father's church during the period
> of uncertainty is going to add substantially to the damage already
> incurred by the filing of the charges.
>
> I am concerned about the period between the first formal charge, which
> causes the damage, and the final disposition. Unlike your
> predisposition, I do not always agree with a judge's decision given a
> set of facts/probabilities. For all of us locals, the Frederick
> Russell case comes to mind, along with the Sitler Case. Googling can
> find many other cases where a judge's discretion has not been used
> wisely. In fact, that is the basis of this discussion thread.
>
> According to news reports of the Robinson case the alleged sexual
> contact started when the alleged victim was 15 years old and continued
> for about two years. **
> **
> *Youth Pastor* Robinson is about 29 years old. He has been married
> for about 8 years. He was 27 and the alleged victim was 15 when the
> alleged molestation started. If the allegations are true, it is just
> not sexual behavior that is the issue, but *predatory* sexual behavior
> by a power figure in an allegedly spiritual sanctum. Hence, another
> reason to err on the side of caution.
>
> Here is another aspect of the problem; it is not an imaginary one
> as something similar happened in a local case where allegedly not just
> one but five children of one family were molested:
>
> After a charge is made, especially of a member of or a professional in
> a religious or other close-knit organization, sometimes an enormous
> amount of pressure of various kinds are exerted on the victim and the
> victim's family to change their story, to suppress important parts of
> the story, and/or to agree to a sweetheart plea bargain.
>
> In the Robinson case where the accused father is the pastor of the
> church where the accused worked and where at least some of the alleged
> molestation occurred, the message being sent to the congregation seems
> to be that the youth pastor by his redeployment in the church is
> innocent. Such a message from the senior pastor appears to be a
> not-so-subtle message to the congregation that the alleged victim and
> her family are lying, and the congregation needs to take action in
> support of his son, action which would be designed to pressure the
> victim and the victim's family.
>
> In my opinion the best thing for the health of the congregation, and
> certainly for the victim and the victim's family would be for the
> father to keep the son away from the church and let the legal process
> reach a conclusion. I would also argue that a condition of bail, if
> bail was warranted at all, would be continuous electronic monitoring.
>
> W.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:30 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: What is wrong with this picture?
>
> I agree it's serious, I agree about the recidivism rate, I understand
> the quandary this puts some pastors in. I just think that we have to
> balance the risk of further harm to children if he is guilty with the
> possible harm done to this man's whole life if he is innocent. It's a
> hard balancing act to pull off, I'm sure.
>
> While the no-contact order was presumably based on cogent evidence, so
> presumably was the lessening of that order. Without having in front
> of me what Judge McDermott had in front of him I have no way of
> judging the two judges in this one. I see nothing wrong with a
> no-contact order, it seems prudent to me, but without any other data I
> have to assume the judge knows what he is doing.
>
> I really just wanted to stave off the trashing of this man's life here
> on the Viz until after he is found guilty, assuming that he is, in
> fact, found guilty. This lessens the impact of an accusation of child
> abuse or molestation as a weapon in a dispute. While enough evidence
> was presumably found for this man to be charged with the crime, isn't
> it possible that the system is erring on the side of the child
> (rightly so) and that the evidence may not be as concrete as we
> think? How many unfounded accusations of child abuse come up in
> heated divorce cases, for example?
>
> Paul
>
> Art Deco wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Yes, in the eyes of the law the alleged molester is innocent until
>> proven guilty. He may be, in fact, innocent.
>>
>> However, he was charged, which means that a magistrate found enough
>> evidence to take that serious step. Then a no-contact order was
>> issued presumably based on cogent evidence. The no-contact order not
>> only prohibits the alleged molester from contacting the alleged
>> victims, but an even stronger "from contacting people younger than 18."
>>
>> The question here is what prudent actions should be taken while the
>> legal process is grinding away in these cases. I think that a strict
>> no-contact order is among the prudent actions if the alleged molester
>> is judged to be a lesser risk that should be granted bail.
>>
>> In this case "...the prosecutor's office is worried that the youth
>> pastor still has access to minors at the church. Robinson also is
>> allegedly still participating in a church Web site that is frequented
>> by the congregation's youth."
>>
>> Hence, I don't think it prudent to allow the alleged molester to
>> frequent/work at the place where:
>>
>> 1. At least one of the alleged crimes occurred and/or there is a
>> possibility of contact with the victim (unless the victim forgoes the
>> services of the church, an action which appears warranted in this
>> case) or,
>>
>> 2. Contact, electronic or otherwise, with those under 18 who might
>> come to the church offices.
>>
>> Though there is not complete agreement among authorities of what the
>> actual rate is, it appears that the recidivism rate for sexual
>> molesters is very high.
>>
>> It is a difficult for society and its protectors in the criminal
>> justice system to decide what to do with an alleged, but not yet
>> tried child molester.
>>
>> As with all of us the alleged molester has certain rights including
>> the right to bail with appropriate conditions. On the other hand,
>> there is always the enhanced possibility that the alleged molester
>> may, while out on bail, re-offend or attempt directly or indirectly
>> to intimidate his alleged victims and/or their families. In a recent
>> case in Latah County where an offender was left on his own in another
>> state for six months, there is still an open question of whether a
>> re-offense or several re-offenses occurred. Because of the
>> disposition of this particular case, that question may be never
>> answered publicly.
>>
>> Depending on the circumstances in some cases, bail with electronic
>> monitoring may be appropriate. In some cases bail may not be
>> appropriate. The issue concerns weighing the rights of the alleged
>> molester and an estimate the particular molester's risk factor
>> against the possible/probable harm to real, vulnerable people. For
>> my part, I would err on the side of caution in this particular case
>> and in child molestation cases in general.
>>
>> I have appended below the line today's segment from the
>> Spokesman-Review series on child abuse. This segment deals in
>> part with this issue from the viewpoint of religious professionals.
>>
>> Since I am a non-believer, I do not agree with some of the views
>> expressed in the article. The most important question that remains
>> for me is how to protect possible victims and potential victims while
>> not violating civil liberties given our current state of knowledge.
>>
>> Regardless of the hype from certain psychologists and from certain
>> religious professionals, we have not advanced our knowledge in this
>> field enough to say with any great probability which offenders, if
>> left anatomically whole, will reoffend. There is some evidence from
>> Denmark that voluntary castration of male offenders makes a dramatic
>> though not complete reduction in the recidivism rate.
>>
>> In terms of the article below, I do not believe that all offenders
>> are "capable of redemption" or in secular terms, being prevented from
>> reoffending. It doesn't take much Googling to provide ample
>> evidence for this viewpoint.
>>
>> W.
>> _________________________________________________________
>> <http://www.spokesmanreview.com/> Thursday, April 5, 2007
>>
>>
>> *Churches grapple with dilemma of allowing sex offenders into
>> congregations, weighing vulnerability of parishioners against the
>> principle that everyone is capable of redemption *
>>
>>
>> Finding forgiveness
>>
>>
>> "If we are really going to live as Christians, then we're going to
>> have to deal with this," says Pastor Steve Nickodemus, right, of
>> Christ Our Redeemer Lutheran Church in Sandpoint, describing sex
>> offenders who want to attend church.
>>
>>
>> //
>>
>>
>> Virginia De Leon
>> <http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/bylines.asp?bylinename=Virginia%20De%20Leon>
>> Staff writer
>> April 5, 2007
>>
>> He didn't want to lie to his pastor.
>>
>> So the man told him everything: The terms of his probation. The years
>> in prison. The fact that he had molested a child.
>>
>> He wanted to come to church, the sex offender told the Rev. Steve
>> Nickodemus. He wanted to repent for his sins and seek the grace of God.
>>
>> Nickodemus, pastor of Christ Our Redeemer Lutheran Church in
>> Sandpoint, didn't quite know what to do at first. His church - home
>> of the Little Lamb Preschool and Kindergarten - was full of
>> vulnerable children. Some families also would certainly object to
>> worshipping with a sex offender.
>>
>> Yet, before him was this man asking for guidance, begging for a
>> chance at redemption.
>>
>> Other pastors have faced the same dilemma.
>>
>> According to Keeping Kids Safe Ministries, a Tennessee-based
>> organization that assists churches with this challenge, convicted sex
>> offenders are attending church in increasing numbers. Greg Sporer, a
>> therapist and one of the founders of Keeping Kids Safe, estimates
>> that at least half of the country's roughly 500,000 registered sex
>> offenders are participating in worship services, often without
>> telling the pastors. And others who have committed sex crimes but
>> have never been caught are also showing up at church.
>>
>>
>> "They're attending church silently and in secret, which is a risk to
>> kids," Sporer said. "Without accountability, you don't know if
>> they're praying to God or preying on kids."
>>
>> Some pastors, as well as church members, wouldn't think twice about
>> turning a sex offender away. They're too dangerous, they say, too
>> much of a liability.
>>
>> But Nickodemus sensed remorse from the man who asked permission three
>> years ago to attend Christ Our Redeemer, so he embraced the
>> challenge. "If we are really going to live as Christians, then we're
>> going to have to deal with this," he said.
>>
>> Somehow, he had to find a balance between the moral obligation of
>> protecting the children and the church's mission of helping those in
>> need.
>>
>> 'The safest in Spokane'
>>
>> While kids learn about Jesus and the Bible in a separate room
>> downstairs, the adult members of Spokane's Community Bible Chapel
>> remain in the sanctuary for worship.
>>
>> About 75 percent of the roughly 300 members here are in some sort of
>> recovery - including abnormal addictions to sex.
>>
>> Convicted sex offenders are among the worshippers at the
>> non-denominational church, but Pastor Danny Green believes his church
>> "is probably the safest in Spokane."
>>
>> "We are a family," said Green, "and people here are very protective
>> of their family."
>>
>> Nonetheless, Green enforces strict rules when it comes to the kids.
>> He won't let anyone spend time with the youth group unless she or he
>> undergoes an extensive background check. No one who has been
>> convicted of a sex crime can be on the same floor with the kids, and
>> adults are never allowed to be alone with children. During Sunday
>> services, parishioners in charge of security always monitor the
>> halls, restrooms and other areas.
>>
>> He also communicates regularly with probation officers who keep track
>> of some of his members - level 2 and level 3 sex offenders and others
>> who have just been released from prison and are on probation.
>>
>> Every Wednesday and Friday night, sex offenders, drug addicts,
>> alcoholics and others suffering from "hurts, habits and hang-ups"
>> gather at Community Bible for Celebrate Recovery. For several hours,
>> they meet in small groups to talk openly about the crimes of their
>> past, their current problems and temptations, their hopes for a
>> better life.
>>
>> "Everyone is welcome here," said Green, who once struggled with
>> alcohol and drug addictions. "We've all made mistakes in our past, so
>> we don't judge."
>>
>> Green acknowledges that sexual abuse is a heinous crime, but even sex
>> offenders need spiritual guidance in order to prevent them from
>> hurting others again. Plus, the mere fact that they've come to church
>> and acknowledged their crimes is a step in the right direction.
>>
>> "They're not walking through the doors to abuse our kids," Green
>> said. "They want to change their lives. ... We don't look at them as
>> sex offenders; we see them as humans struggling in the world."
>>
>> Before ending up at Green's church - a place known in the prison
>> system and the streets for its Celebrate Recovery program - many of
>> the sex offenders try attending other congregations, often without
>> informing the pastor of their presence.
>>
>> They fear rejection, said Al West, who offers a one-man, Bible-based
>> ministry in Spokane for convicted sex offenders, drug addicts and
>> other convicted criminals.
>>
>> "The sex offender is the new leper in our society," he said. Nobody
>> wants them, he said, and they have nowhere to go. So they keep their
>> past secret, which often becomes detrimental to their efforts to
>> refrain from crime. "A hidden life can be demonic," he said. "It
>> keeps you in bondage."
>>
>> West doesn't think most pastors in the region are prepared to work
>> with sex offenders. He also isn't sure if the traditional church
>> environment is conducive to a population that requires a high degree
>> of supervision and accountability.
>>
>> Before allowing the registered sex offender to attend Christ Our
>> Redeemer, Nickodemus talked to the man about the crime he committed
>> against his stepdaughter many years ago. They discussed his living
>> conditions, his therapy, his support network and the probation he
>> would have to follow for the next 13 years.
>>
>> After consulting with church elders, Nickodemus laid out some
>> parameters for the man: He could come to church, but only with a
>> chaperon who would accompany him from the moment he stepped out of
>> the car. He must stay away from children. He would be constantly watched.
>>
>> Three years since that initial conversation, the sex offender has
>> continued to attend a men's group and worship services at Christ Our
>> Redeemer. Despite some initial concern and outrage, most members who
>> attend the 11 a.m. service know and have accepted the fact that
>> there's a sex offender at church.
>>
>> "I had to overcome some of my own fears," said Nickodemus, the
>> church's pastor for more than a dozen years. "There are some sex
>> offenders out there who are not conforming to what the law requires,
>> but they won't be the ones who'll come to you and ask if they can
>> come to church."
>>
>> Silence is greatest risk
>>
>> When you proclaim God's grace and leave the doors wide open, you just
>> never know who will show up at church, acknowledged Alvin Moreno,
>> pastor of Spokane's Victory Outreach.
>>
>> There are more than 15,000 convicted sex offenders eligible for
>> registration in Washington state, according to the Spokane County
>> Sheriff's Office. More than 1,000 live in Spokane County.
>>
>> In Idaho, there are 264 adult sex offenders registered in Kootenai
>> County and another 81 in Bonner County, according to the Idaho State
>> Police.
>>
>> But sex offenders who make themselves known to a congregation
>> shouldn't be a church's greatest fear, according to Moreno, who
>> regularly ministers to gang members, prostitutes and other
>> higher-risk populations.
>>
>> It's actually the offenders who have never been caught or who refuse
>> to identify themselves who pose the greatest risk.
>>
>> "When people think about sex offenders, they picture guys with wild
>> hair and big beards ready to prey on society," said West, who has
>> spent nearly two decades ministering to sex offenders. "But sex
>> offenders come from every walk of life. They include business people
>> and clergy. ... They are people with families and children."
>>
>> Offenders include those who have a high level of trust within a group
>> or community, he said.
>>
>> Consider the sexual abuse scandal that has rocked the Roman Catholic
>> Church. One of the most notorious offenders was Patrick O'Donnell, a
>> man who used the power of the priesthood to endear himself to
>> families so that he could groom and molest boys. In depositions,
>> O'Donnell has admitted to abusing so many boys that he couldn't
>> remember all their names.
>>
>> In response to the scandal, American bishops in 2002 enacted new
>> policies to ensure the protection of children and others who are
>> vulnerable. Those rules include reporting any allegations of abuse to
>> law enforcement and a strict code of conduct for clergy and employees.
>>
>> Churches of every denomination have followed suit. Most congregations
>> do not allow adults to be left alone with a child unless the child is
>> that person's own son or daughter. They also require adult volunteers
>> and employees to meet with children at the church or other public
>> places instead of a private residence. And anyone who wishes to work
>> with young people must first be screened and undergo a thorough
>> background check, according to several area churches.
>>
>> Enforcing these policies not only promotes safety, it also protects a
>> church from lawsuits, Moreno said.
>>
>> "The key is to provide a safe environment at all times," said the
>> Rev. Dave Olson, pastor of First Lutheran Church in Sandpoint.
>>
>> Although he has never had to deal with the sex offender issue, the
>> safety of his congregation is always a priority. "The problem with
>> the registered sex offender program is that it assumes only people
>> who are at risk are those with a prior record, but most of the abuse
>> that takes place involves someone who has not previously been
>> convicted," he said.
>>
>> "You may have a sex offender at your church, so you have to create an
>> environment that protects everybody."
>>
>> Welcome not universal
>>
>> For most pastors who have had a sex offender at church, figuring out
>> a way to minister to the offender while protecting children is only
>> half the battle. They also have to work the issue out with members of
>> their congregation.
>>
>> Five years ago, a man who had been convicted of child molestation but
>> had been out of prison for several years approached the leaders of
>> First Lutheran Church in Spirit Lake for permission to attend services.
>>
>> The pastor, after setting some parameters, allowed the offender to
>> come. But the man wasn't welcomed by everyone after his presence was
>> made known after a service one Sunday, according to John Halverson,
>> the church's current pastor who served as deacon at the time. Some
>> people threatened to leave if the offender continued to attend church.
>>
>> So the man stopped going to services. Still seeking spiritual
>> guidance, he asked Halverson to meet with him at home for Bible study
>> and prayer. They met regularly until the man's death two years ago.
>>
>> "He was repentant of his sins," Halverson said. "As a Christian and
>> as a pastor, I welcomed him."
>>
>> Halverson doesn't think every sex offender should be allowed at
>> church, but "repentant sinners" should always be welcome - as long as
>> they are under careful watch.
>>
>> Despite initial fears, most of the people at Christ the Redeemer have
>> grown from the experience of having a sex offender in their midst,
>> said Nickodemus.
>>
>> "Is there opportunity for grace?" he asked. "I've talked to other
>> pastors about this and sometimes, they just freak out. They don't
>> know what to do and are afraid of the whole thing."
>>
>> He acknowledged that churches remain vulnerable - to someone with a
>> gun, to sex offenders, to anyone with an agenda of any kind. But as a
>> Christian congregation, risk becomes part of their spiritual growth,
>> he said.
>>
>> Having a sex offender come to services has actually been "very
>> healthy" for the congregation, he said. "It makes us wrestle with our
>> own sins and our own prejudices," he said.
>>
>> His presence also keeps them grounded in reality.
>>
>> "Being 'real' doesn't mean that everything is just fine, we're all
>> nice here and when you've done something wrong, you're out," said
>> Nickodemus. "Finding the balance between truth and grace - that is
>> what 'real' means."
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> *To:* Vision 2020 <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:54 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] What is wrong with this picture?
>>
>> Don't take this as condoning anything this guy may have done, but
>> remember that he is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty in a
>> court of law. If this wasn't the case, then you could accuse anyone
>> of anything heinous with little or no evidence and ruin their lives
>> before they even have a chance to defend themselves.
>>
>> That having being said, certain precautions are probably in order.
>> The question here is really are the current precautions being taken
>> enough. Not knowing the details, I have little to base my judgement
>> upon. Presumably (hopefully) Judge McDermott has a bit more on which
>> to base his judgement.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Art Deco wrote:
>>
>>> <http://www.spokesmanreview.com/> Wednesday, April 4, 2007
>>>
>>>
>>> Accused youth pastor can keep working at church
>>>
>>> Associated Press
>>> <http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/bylines.asp?bylinename=Associated%20Press>
>>> April 4, 2007
>>>
>>> POCATELLO, Idaho - A youth pastor charged with sexually abusing a
>>> minor may continue to work at the church where the crime allegedly
>>> occurred, a judge says.
>>>
>>> Joshua J. Robinson, 29, was charged in February with two counts of
>>> lewd conduct with a minor and one count of sexually abusing a minor
>>> for allegedly abusing a teenage girl starting when she was 15 years old.
>>>
>>> Because of the charges, a no-contact order was issued directing
>>> Robinson to stay away from the girl. But last month, 6th District
>>> Judge Peter McDermott modified the order, allowing Robinson to
>>> return to his job as a youth pastor at Gate City Christian Church in
>>> Chubbuck. Robinson is still prohibited from contacting people
>>> younger than 18.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, Bannock County Deputy Prosecutor Cleve Colson asked the
>>> judge to reconsider the change. One of the charges against Robinson
>>> allegedly took place at the church, Colson said, and the
>>> prosecutor's office is worried that the youth pastor still has
>>> access to minors at the church. Robinson also is allegedly still
>>> participating in a church Web site that is frequented by the
>>> congregation's youth, Colson said.
>>>
>>> A phone call to the church's senior pastor, John Robinson, was not
>>> immediately returned. John Robinson is Joshua Robinson's father, a
>>> church receptionist said.
>>>
>>> Joshua Robinson's attorney, Aaron Thompson of Dial, May & Rammell in
>>> Pocatello, said the younger Robinson is no longer handling youth
>>> ministries at the church and instead is doing administrative duties
>>> that don't involve contact with young people.
>>>
>>> McDermott said Robinson could continue to work at the church. A
>>> trial has been scheduled for June 26.
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>=======================================================
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>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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