[Vision2020] Ellen Goodman, baby killer...

Sun Sep 24 13:58:23 PDT 2006

Joe,

 I understand what you are saying now. But I still think  there is a huge difference because taking innocent lives in war is  unavoidable where as abortion is mostly avoidable. 

 Taking  innocent lives in an unavoidable situation I think is really what is  key here. If a woman must have an abortion, it is unavoidable, then I  think it is justified. But in most cases, abortion is avoidable. 

  In war the killing also has to be unavoidable to be justified, IMHO.  The war itself being avoidable is a different issue altogether. Those  decisions are made at different levels by different people. 

  Best,

  _DJA

Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:  Donovan,

Let me try just one more time to make my point.

I'm  not suggesting that loss of innocent life is unjustified in war. Maybe  it is justfied, maybe it is not. Nor am I saying that abortions are  sometimes justified. Let's leave these decisions up to the moral  philosophers. I'm a metaphysician and an epistemologist.

My  point is a relative one: If you think that we are justified in taking  innocent lives during times of war, then you do not think that we are  never justified in taking innocent lives. Period. You cannot then use  this last general claim to support the view that abortion is always  wrong. Clearly you do not believe the general claim since you think  that there are exceptions in situations of war.

I don't mean YOU  in particular, Donovan, I mean anyone who tries to argue against ALL  abortions but allows for the taking of SOME innocent lives in times of  war. There is something incoherent and/or dishonest about this set of  claims.

Best, Joe

---- Donovan Arnold  wrote: 

=============
Joe,

  The morality issue here is the target. Targeting babies for killing is different than targeting murderous men. 

  There is a difference between targeting Hitler who committed many crimes against humanity and targeting a baby. 

  Sure in war it is inevitable that some innocent person might get  killed. However, the total loss of life without the elimination of  Hitler would be greater and there lies the justification. Targeting a  baby for murder does not minimize killing and suffering. 

  Best,

  _DJA

Joe Campbell  wrote:  Donovan,

Are  you suggesting that the only folks who die during war are goons? In the  Iraq War, so far, over 100,000 Iraqis have died. Certainly there are  some children, pregnant women, etc. in that group.

My main point is that you cannot coherently believe that innocent lives should never be taken without being a pacifist.

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold  wrote: 

=============
Joe,

  There is a huge difference between war and abortion. Abortion directly  targets an innocent human being, a particular one that isn't doing  anything to anybody. 

 I don't agree with the war in Iraq,  but I do understand the difference between targeting a henchman and his  goons vs. that of a baby.

  Best,

  _DJA

Joe  Campbell wrote:So you were against the war in a Iraq, since it led to  the death of innocent people? Or do you think that this situation is  different?

Is your point, Tony, -- presuming that you are not  against the war in Iraq -- that you think that it is sometimes OK to  kill innocent people -- even a human fetus -- but only if you do it  with a smart bomb?

--
Joe Campbell

---- Tony Simpson  wrote: 

=============
Those who advocate, but are uncomfortable with an inhuman position, 
rationalize their acceptance of brutality by proclaiming that after all, 
everyone accepts it.  Murdering the innocent is wrong regardless of how long 
it has been countenanced by society or justified by the Supreme Court.

It used to be acceptable to marginalize and brutalize African Americans.  So 
too the Jews, and any number of groups over the years.  Society has been 
dreadfully wrong before, as has the Supreme Court.  (Dred Scott)  There have 
always been those who's ethical threshold was ahead of their time as well as 
those for whom any excuse for propping up the status quo would do. 
Unfortunately Teach Gier is from the latter camp.  Someday he will be 
recognized as similar to those who supported slavery and genocide.

We can choose to swallow his convoluted and morally bankrupt conclusions, or 
we can think for ourselves and listen to our collective conscience.  The 
choice is ours.  History will record those who stood for right and justice 
as well as those who enabled brutality.

"There is a dangerous silence today.  A silence that allows evil to 
flourish."   -M.L.K.

"Suffer the children to come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of 
eaven."  -Jesus

-T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] OT WAS: RE: Ellen Goodman, baby killer...

> Greetings:
>
> Great minds are so in tune with each other, Bob!
>
> Using a very similar thought experiment (being hooked to a famous 
> violinist
> without your permission), Judith Jarvis Thomson wrote a now famous article 
> for
> "Philosophy and Public Affairs."
>
> The power of Thomson's argument is that the violinist is a person, but our
> moral, legal, and religious tradition has recognized the fetus as a person 
> only
> late in pregnancy, a position that corresponds to the Supreme Court 
> decision of
> 1973.
>
> I humbly offer my own views on this topic at
> www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm.
>
> Nick Gier
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 09/22/2006
>
> 

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet, 
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
               http://www.fsr.net                       
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet, 
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
               http://www.fsr.net                       
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

---------------------------------
 All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet, 
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
               http://www.fsr.net                       
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Everyone is raving about the  all-new Yahoo! Mail.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20060924/2f90a2d2/attachment.htm 