[Vision2020] Debate or Coward?

[Michael]

Donavan,

 

I think it has been characteristic for you to turn the real situation upside
down.  The Kirk as an isolated, special group of people, as a specially
bounded culture, is the product of Wilson and then the product of the
resulting Kirk itself. Who, for instance, came up with the very idea of ‘the
Kirk?’ The Kirk is what has drawn its own walls around itself, at times in
explicit ways.  The idea of any possible criticism of Doug Wilson qua Doug
Wilson or even just a criticism of something he said is constantly turned
into a persecuting attack against an identifiable “group” by the Kirk and by
Wilson himself. All this originates with the pseudo-cult leader himself.  On
the sociological level, this is why your analysis breaks down to the degree
it does.  The Kirk is not “a religion” at this point in time but a cult;
this is how it always goes with such small cults.  It is the cult leader who
creates the boundary of the social group while society looks on with
curiosity or else criticism.  The foundation of a cult like this is the
manufactured, isolated ‘culture;’ it is the sociology of the thing.
“Persecution” is the imaginative construct the cult leader intentionally
gives to any arbitrary dynamic between the group and people outside the
group.  The real mechanism here is a social one; “religion” is always just a
tool the cult leader uses for his social goals.  I’m sure there are
analogies to be drawn this way or that to religious wars, etc, and there
might be true subtleness to your account that this paragraph does not
capture. But certainly, the connotations of your claims of religious
persecution give more darkness than light to the situation.

 

Thanks

Michael Metzler 

  

 

Joe,

If that is what you meant, then why not say that. I am willing to bet there
are numerous differences in religious beliefs between you and Doug Wilson
and those that attack him.

One I can think of is his dispersion of alcohol to children during a
religious ceremony. There was big stink over that. 

Another is their believes about homosexuality. I recall you having a few
posts in response of that.

Another has been the role of women in Christ Church many of you have
attacked. 

Another has been if the Church deserves tax free status, like other
Churches. 

Another is Slavery.

Another is Calvinism. 

I do think you bring up a good point though, Joe. I don't ever remember
hearing any speeches by Hitler stating precisely any problems he has with
Judaism, but I don't think anyone would argue he didn't persecute them for
being Jewish. 

If you attack a group of people and use their church as their identifying
marker, such as, "Kirkers are", "All Catholics are",  "Mormons have", etc,
that is religious discrimination, regardless of how much or little you get
into the details of that church. 

Your statement,
"As far as I can tell, all of us are on the same team, e.g., we're all
Christians."

Shows a complete misunderstanding of religious persecution and ignorance of
the history of religious persecution. For over a thousand years Christians
have attacked other Christians, Protestants and Catholics. The actual
differences between Catholics and Protestants in practice is so tiny it
takes a good long theological debate to find them. 

When you treat any group or people, or person, differently because of a
church they belong to, that is religious discrimination. Period. 

Best,

_DJA 


Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote: 

I have looked at his blog. I've talked to him personally about this and
other issues. More to the point, I'm not making accusations about Michael's
character that I have failed to even attempt to support. 

So no, Donovan, you are the one who needs to get clear on these issues. If
you want to suggest that all of this is a matter of religious persecution,
then please tell me the particular differences in RELIGIOUS views between
Michael and Doug Wilson. Or between Keely and Doug Wilson. Or between J Ford
and Doug Wilson. Or even between myself and Doug Wilson, for that matter. If
you can't do this, then stop making those accusations.

As far as I can tell, all of us are on the same team, e.g., we're all
Christians. I'm not saying that there aren't differences here, I just don't
see how one can classify them as RELIGIOUS differences. If you are going to
say that they are religious differences, then support the claim in some way.

--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold wrote: 

=============
Joe,

Might I suggest you take at look at his blog or ask him yourself.

Best,

_DJA

Joe Campbell wrote: I'm just wondering, Donovan, what exactly are the
RELIGIOUS beliefs that folks at CC endorse with which Michael disagrees?

Best, Joe

---- Donovan Arnold wrote: 

=============
Michael,

I really think you need to find a new hobby besides bashing members of a
church you disagree with. It cannot be healthy.

Yes, I am sure you can find lots of outrageous, offense, frustrating, and
arguably unfair beliefs and practices of Christ Church. But you know, they
are by far not the biggest or worst religion. And they also do a lot of good
for the community. 

Take my church for example. It is headed by a former Nazi who later
masterminded a conspiracy to protect the largest number of child molesters
in the United States by moving them around from parish to parish. He
oppresses woman, and preaches that gays are immoral. He has more followers
than any other religion, including in this town. There is another religion
that kills homosexuals and launches violent attacks against people that even
draw a cartoon of their God. 

Nobody is forcing you to believe or practice what you want. And likewise,
nobody has to justify their personal religious beliefs and actions to you.
If you don't agree with their words and actions you are free to join another
religion or start one of your own. 

Best,

_DJA


Michael wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Donavan! What are you
saying?

Story line again:

Kirkers insult community; Kirkers have big theonomist, take over
eschatology. 

Community critiques Kirkers as any community would.

Kirkers unable to rationally defend themselves against criticism; they
instead lie.

Kirkers continue to insult. 

Insults mount from both directions, and through all the smoke, not one
meaningful and true response is found from the Kirk.

This is the story, and this is my point.

You, Donavan, are becoming more mysterious as the months drag on. But hey,
that’s ok; I’ll still be your friend. Even if you just might
have defending the Nazi’s against the persecution from the Jews! And
remember, I still have friends in the Kirk. Call me Shindler….

Michael


Michael,

You wrote:

"Does not anyone at the Kirk have a rational, argumentative point to be made
about the constant and varied public criticism against them?"

Like I said, I think you guys should just take your case to the city council
to require all members of Christ Church be given a giant bright yellow star
to wear on their arm so we can easily recognize them.

Best,

_DJA 

Michael wrote: 

Lucy Jones writes:



“If it's not interesting, you could *advertise* it on V2020 the way
other bloggers do who need more

attention.”


I am unceasingly dumfounded at how kirkers can continue to make veiled and
slanderous comments even when they are continually exposed for what they
are. Just this morning I located another kirk blog linked to my site that
revealed yet another misquote. Dale Cortney still refuses to pull an
intentional misquote from my blog that has now been up for months. This is
amazing. After 8 months, and every kirk attack has been in the form of bald
falsehood, nonsensical ridicule, or else strong critique of strawed-man
quotes ripped out of context. Does not anyone at the Kirk have a rational,
argumentative point to be made about the constant and varied public
criticism against them? Outside of the silly “persecution” ploy?

As for this quote: this has become one of the steady anti-pooh mantras that
kirkers sooth themselves with. So please allow me just this one time to
quickly and modestly point out the relevant fact that my readership is as
strong as Peter Leithart’s; you might recall how Wilson boasted about
Leithart’s blog in his sermon when explaining why he was the truly
anointed one in Moscow. Apparently, the kind of “interest”
Leithart’s blog gets is evidence for the fact that YHWH will defend
the Kirk against its local enemies; I guess I now have evidence that YHWH is
routing for me too. In sum, I certainly haven’t sent links to Vision
2020 to keep a “needed” readership (putting aside the claims
that I have a mental disorder); I just like local readership more than
non-local, given the common topic of my blog (which, by the way, is only
about 40% Kirk stuff these days). 

Dear kirkers, say something true and meaningful. 

Sincerely,
Michael Metzler 
www.poohsthink.com 


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