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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Donavan,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I think it has been characteristic for you to turn the real situation
upside down. The Kirk as an isolated, special group of people, as a specially bounded
culture, is the product of <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wilson</st1:place></st1:City>
and then the product of the resulting Kirk itself. Who, for instance, came up
with the very idea of ‘the Kirk?’ The Kirk is what has drawn its
own walls around itself, at times in explicit ways. The idea of any possible
criticism of Doug Wilson qua Doug Wilson or even just a criticism of something
he said is constantly turned into a persecuting attack against an identifiable “group”
by the Kirk and by Wilson himself. All this originates with the pseudo-cult
leader himself. On the sociological level, this is why your analysis breaks
down to the degree it does. The Kirk is not “a religion” at this
point in time but a cult; this is how it always goes with such small cults. It
is the cult leader who creates the boundary of the social group while society
looks on with curiosity or else criticism. The foundation of a cult like this
is the manufactured, isolated ‘culture;’ it is the sociology of the
thing. “Persecution” is the imaginative construct the cult leader
intentionally gives to any arbitrary dynamic between the group and people
outside the group. The real mechanism here is a social one; “religion”
is always just a tool the cult leader uses for his social goals. I’m sure
there are analogies to be drawn this way or that to religious wars, etc, and
there might be true subtleness to your account that this paragraph does not
capture. But certainly, the connotations of your claims of religious
persecution give more darkness than light to the situation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Michael Metzler <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Joe,<br>
<br>
If that is what you meant, then why not say that. I am willing to bet there are
numerous differences in religious beliefs between you and Doug Wilson and those
that attack him.<br>
<br>
One I can think of is his dispersion of alcohol to children during a religious
ceremony. There was big stink over that. <br>
<br>
Another is their believes about homosexuality. I recall you having a few posts
in response of that.<br>
<br>
Another has been the role of women in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Christ</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>
many of you have attacked. <br>
<br>
Another has been if the Church deserves tax free status, like other Churches. <br>
<br>
Another is Slavery.<br>
<br>
Another is Calvinism. <br>
<br>
I do think you bring up a good point though, Joe. I don't ever remember hearing
any speeches by Hitler stating precisely any problems he has with Judaism, but
I don't think anyone would argue he didn't persecute them for being Jewish. <br>
<br>
If you attack a group of people and use their church as their identifying
marker, such as, "Kirkers are", "All Catholics are",
"Mormons have", etc, that is religious discrimination, regardless of
how much or little you get into the details of that church. <br>
<br>
Your statement,<br>
"As far as I can tell, all of us are on the same team, e.g., we're all
Christians."<br>
<br>
Shows a complete misunderstanding of religious persecution and ignorance of the
history of religious persecution. For over a thousand years Christians have
attacked other Christians, Protestants and Catholics. The actual differences
between Catholics and Protestants in practice is so tiny it takes a good long
theological debate to find them. <br>
<br>
When you treat any group or people, or person, differently because of a church
they belong to, that is religious discrimination. Period. <br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
_DJA <br>
<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Joe Campbell <<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">joekc@adelphia.net</st1:PersonName>></span></i></b> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I have looked at his blog. I've talked to him personally about this and
other issues. More to the point, I'm not making accusations about Michael's
character that I have failed to even attempt to support. <br>
<br>
So no, Donovan, you are the one who needs to get clear on these issues. If you
want to suggest that all of this is a matter of religious persecution, then
please tell me the particular differences in RELIGIOUS views between Michael
and Doug Wilson. Or between Keely and Doug Wilson. Or between J Ford and Doug
Wilson. Or even between myself and Doug Wilson, for that matter. If you can't
do this, then stop making those accusations.<br>
<br>
As far as I can tell, all of us are on the same team, e.g., we're all
Christians. I'm not saying that there aren't differences here, I just don't see
how one can classify them as RELIGIOUS differences. If you are going to say
that they are religious differences, then support the claim in some way.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Joe Campbell<br>
<br>
---- Donovan Arnold <DONOVANJARNOLD2005 @yahoo.com="">wrote: <br>
<br>
=============<br>
Joe,<br>
<br>
Might I suggest you take at look at his blog or ask him yourself.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
_DJA<br>
<br>
Joe Campbell <JOEKC @adelphia.net="">wrote: I'm just wondering, Donovan, what
exactly are the RELIGIOUS beliefs that folks at CC endorse with which Michael
disagrees?<br>
<br>
Best, Joe<br>
<br>
---- Donovan Arnold wrote: <br>
<br>
=============<br>
Michael,<br>
<br>
I really think you need to find a new hobby besides bashing members of a church
you disagree with. It cannot be healthy.<br>
<br>
Yes, I am sure you can find lots of outrageous, offense, frustrating, and
arguably unfair beliefs and practices of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Christ</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>.
But you know, they are by far not the biggest or worst religion. And they also
do a lot of good for the community. <br>
<br>
Take my church for example. It is headed by a former Nazi who later
masterminded a conspiracy to protect the largest number of child molesters in
the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>
by moving them around from parish to parish. He oppresses woman, and preaches
that gays are immoral. He has more followers than any other religion, including
in this town. There is another religion that kills homosexuals and launches
violent attacks against people that even draw a cartoon of their God. <br>
<br>
Nobody is forcing you to believe or practice what you want. And likewise,
nobody has to justify their personal religious beliefs and actions to you. If
you don't agree with their words and actions you are free to join another
religion or start one of your own. <br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
_DJA<br>
<br>
<br>
Michael wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Donavan! What are you
saying?<br>
<br>
Story line again:<br>
<br>
Kirkers insult community; Kirkers have big theonomist, take over eschatology. <br>
<br>
Community critiques Kirkers as any community would.<br>
<br>
Kirkers unable to rationally defend themselves against criticism; they instead
lie.<br>
<br>
Kirkers continue to insult. <br>
<br>
Insults mount from both directions, and through all the smoke, not one
meaningful and true response is found from the Kirk.<br>
<br>
This is the story, and this is my point.<br>
<br>
You, Donavan, are becoming more mysterious as the months drag on. But hey, thatâ‚„s
ok; Iâ‚„ll still be your friend. Even if you just might have
defending the Naziâ‚„s against the persecution from the Jews!
And remember, I still have friends in the Kirk. Call me Shindler₦.<br>
<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
<br>
Michael,<br>
<br>
You wrote:<br>
<br>
"Does not anyone at the Kirk have a rational, argumentative point to be
made about the constant and varied public criticism against them?"<br>
<br>
Like I said, I think you guys should just take your case to the city council to
require all members of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Christ</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> be given a giant
bright yellow star to wear on their arm so we can easily recognize them.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
_DJA <br>
<br>
Michael wrote: <br>
<br>
Lucy Jones writes:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
â‚“If it's not interesting, you could *advertise* it on V2020
the way other bloggers do who need more<br>
<br>
attention.â‚<br>
<br>
<br>
I am unceasingly dumfounded at how kirkers can continue to make veiled and
slanderous comments even when they are continually exposed for what they are.
Just this morning I located another kirk blog linked to my site that revealed
yet another misquote. Dale Cortney still refuses to pull an intentional
misquote from my blog that has now been up for months. This is amazing. After 8
months, and every kirk attack has been in the form of bald falsehood,
nonsensical ridicule, or else strong critique of strawed-man quotes ripped out
of context. Does not anyone at the Kirk have a rational, argumentative point to
be made about the constant and varied public criticism against them? Outside of
the silly â‚“persecutionâ‚ ploy?<br>
<br>
As for this quote: this has become one of the steady anti-pooh mantras that
kirkers sooth themselves with. So please allow me just this one time to quickly
and modestly point out the relevant fact that my readership is as strong as
Peter Leithartâ‚„s; you might recall how <st1:City w:st="on">Wilson</st1:City>
boasted about Leithartâ‚„s blog in his sermon when explaining
why he was the truly anointed one in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Moscow</st1:place></st1:City>.
Apparently, the kind of â‚“interestâ‚
Leithartâ‚„s blog gets is evidence for the fact that YHWH will
defend the Kirk against its local enemies; I guess I now have evidence that
YHWH is routing for me too. In sum, I certainly havenâ‚„t sent
links to Vision 2020 to keep a â‚“neededâ‚
readership (putting aside the claims that I have a mental disorder); I just
like local readership more than non-local, given the common topic of my blog
(which, by the way, is only about 40% Kirk stuff these days). <br>
<br>
Dear kirkers, say something true and meaningful. <br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Michael Metzler <br>
www.poohsthink.com <br>
<br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</JOEKC></DONOVANJARNOLD2005>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Everyone is raving about the <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http:/advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta"
title="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta">all-new
Yahoo! Mail.</a></span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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