[Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?

[Matt Decker]

Betsy, I believe there are two parties to this discussion. Regardless its 
time to take it offline.

Matt


>From: "Betsy Dickow" <betsyd at turbonet.com>
>Reply-To: Betsy Dickow <betsyd at turbonet.com>
>To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>, "Joe Campbell" 
><joekc at adelphia.net>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 22:09:04 -0800
>
>Please keep this discussion civil and polite Crabtree.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>To: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:46 AM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > It seems to me that since you couldn't make much of a case against your
> > favorite boogiemen in this latest discussion, you're mincing away with a
> > major case of panty wad. Again. Might I suggest a little baby powder and
> > loose trousers till the condition shows improvement?
> >
> > gc
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 9:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > It is not a logical stretch to note that your explanation is a bunch of
> > evasive b-s. Imagine if everyone were to apply such reasoning to every
> > law!
> > What a wonderful world that would be!
> >
> > It cracks me up when conservatives like you pretend to be men of
> > principle,
> > accusing others of hypocrisy, and then use such slippery rhetoric to 
>allow
> > their friends to get off the hook!
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Joe.
> >
> > Your kindness in offering me another chance to respond to your 
>speculative
> > questions is quite touching. As I said in my previous post, I've got no
> > problem with you drawing what ever conclusions make you the happiest. 
>That
> > said...
> >
> > My understanding of what is and isn't a boarder remains unchanged.
> >
> > NSA "students" would not be violating any pertinent city code 
>regardless.
> >
> > I am in favor of fair and equal application of sound law. Even the City
> > realizes that it's codes concerning this matter are confused and
> > unenforceable. Why should I criticize anyone for a hypothetical
> > transgression when the governing body can't tell me precisely what the
> > transgression is or how it differs from several other group living
> > arraignments.
> >
> > Having said this, conclude what you will. To make the assertion that
> > because
> > I won't join you in a hypothetical condemnation, I must therefore 
>"believe
> > that (my) friends are above the law and beyond contempt." seems like 
>quite
> > the logical stretch.
> >
> > gc
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 1:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > I asked you a few questions and you ignored all of them. Instead, you
> > offered your all too usual array of insults and evasions. Given this, I
> > drew
> > my own conclusions. Perhaps this was rash, so I'll give you another
> > chance.
> >
> > Now that you have a clearer understanding of what is and is not a 
>boarder,
> > after your recent extensive research on the subject, in the event that
> > there
> > are actual violations by NSA students of the city code, will you join me
> > in
> > condemning such violations?
> >
> > If you are unable to criticize your friends for even hypothetical
> > violations
> > of the law, it seems reasonable for me to determine that you believe 
>that
> > your friends are above the law and beyond contempt. Which is precisely
> > what
> > I concluded in my previous posts.
> >
> > Does my chain of reasoning make sense now?
> >
> > Best, Joe
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Joe, you are a panic. Your ability to reach a silly conclusion based on
> > what
> > you think you know is second to none. If I had your special ability to
> > read
> > what isn't there into other peoples posts I'd be able to look at "J.
> > O'Ford's" online lunacy and see At Swim-Two-Birds.
> >
> > Take from my response whatever will meet your expectations. It's clear
> > that
> > if you don't see what you "thought" you would, you'll create it. This 
>must
> > be a useful talent to possess when it comes to maintaining your
> > hysterical,
> > self-righteousness. If you need to assign someone to fulfill one of the
> > antihero roles in your little mental melodrama, I'm only to happy to be 
>of
> > service.
> >
> > You're welcome,
> > gc
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:16 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
> >
> >
> > So the short answer to at least one of my questions is that if someone 
>is
> > a
> > friend of yours and he breaks the law, then we should ignore it. To do
> > otherwise would be to engage in "incessant carping."
> >
> > Even though this recent round of "incessant carping" began with a post 
>by
> > your friend, Dale Courtney, and that some of us were just responding to
> > his
> > misleading analogies and false accusations, that is all beside the point
> > because, after all, Dale is your friend and he gets to do whatever he
> > wants.
> >
> > Thanks, Gary! That's exactly what I thought. It explains your role in 
>the
> > NSA saga perfectly!
> >
> > Best, Joe
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > I didn't miss your point Joe, I dismissed it. The long and the short of
> > this
> > topic is this. I did not accuse anyone of violating any laws. If you go
> > back
> > and actually read the exchange between  Ms. Mix and myself you will find
> > that I wished the students success in finding a local home to stay in 
>and
> > that their stay should be as pleasant as possible. In my previous posts 
>I
> > made exactly two points. The first was that the situation that Ms. Mix
> > described in her original request could very easily be construed to meet
> > the
> > city's definition for a boarding house (Ord. 2006-1, 08/07/06) and that 
>I
> > found that amusing and ironic. No amount of sophistry on your part can
> > change this fact. It does and I was. Period. No matter how many, if's,
> > perhaps, maybes, and might have's you throw in.
> >
> > The second point was that there was nothing about the topic which would
> > give
> > it some sort of special dispensation from being fair game for comment 
>and
> > discussion, either on Dale Courtney's web site or any other. Once again, 
>I
> > don't see any room for discussion or disagreement.
> >
> > Everything else you drone on about is simply an exercise in arguing with
> > yourself. (or some here to fore unintroduced third party, with your 
>debate
> > style it's difficult to tell) I do find your remark "The “weekly or
> >  longer”
> > phrase here refers to, for instance, an exchange of room and board for
> > some
> > kind of monetary compensation paid, by the boarder, on a WEEKLY, or
> > monthly,
> > or yearly, etc. basis." to be interesting. Does this mean that by some
> > modification of the payment schedule the folks who "host" NSA students 
>can
> > get you and your tolerance club to cease your incessant carping? I 
>didn't
> > think so.
> >
> > I hope you're enjoying the election,
> > gc
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 10:44 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > Not surprisingly, you missed the point. Let me slow things down for you.
> >
> > I said nothing about there being something in "the city code that
> > distinguishes between one month or four years." I said that there was
> > something in the city code that distinguished between a guest who might
> > stay
> > a month or longer from a boarder who is "housed or fed for compensation 
>on
> > a
> > weekly or longer basis."
> >
> > The “weekly or longer” phrase here refers to, for instance, an 
>exchange of
> > room and board for some kind of monetary compensation paid, by the
> > boarder,
> > on a WEEKLY, or monthly, or yearly, etc. basis.
> >
> > Can you admit this much? If so, then there are CLEAR differences between
> > the
> > situation with regard to Keely's friends and the situation with regard 
>to
> > NSA boarders.
> >
> > First, Keely's friends have VIOLATED NO LAWS. There are, as of yet, no
> > Korean student boarders in Moscow and there has not, as of yet, been any
> > WEEKLY (or longer) compensation paid by these non-existent boarders. In
> > the
> > case of NSA students, the allegation, at least, is that there have been
> > violations of the very code you note below, and that there are, as we
> > speak,
> > continued violations of that code. The complaint by folks like myself is
> > that this is part of a general pattern of disregard for city law and
> > disrespect for folks who do not adopt Doug Wilson's narrow worldview.
> >
> > Second, Keely's original post requested that if anyone was "interested 
>in
> > hosting for a few weeks, with compensation, please e-mail" her friend. 
>My
> > point was that compensation for a few weeks was not the same thing as
> > WEEKLY
> > compensation. I could have stated this more clearly, I admit, but I was 
>in
> > a
> > rush to get to my day job.
> >
> > Third, there was nothing in Keely’s original post suggesting what form
> > this
> > compensation should take. If it is to take the form of food or odd jobs,
> > as
> > Tom suggests, then I’m not sure how it could be construed as a 
>violation
> > of
> > the city code.
> >
> > Overall, Dale's comparison between the situation involving Keely's 
>friends
> > and the ones involving NSA students is like the comparison between 
>apples
> > and oranges.
> >
> > Let me close with a few questions. Since we now have a clearer
> > understanding
> > of what is and is not a boarder, in the event that there are actual
> > violations by NSA students of the city code, will you join me in
> > condemning
> > such violations? If not, what should be done? Why is it that you rush to
> > post about potential violations of the city code when it concerns Keely
> > and
> > her friends yet ignore the allegations of actual violations of the city
> > code
> > when it concerns your friends? Is there something about someone's being
> > your
> > friend that makes him above the law and beyond contempt?
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Joe asks...
> >
> > Isn't Keely talking about folks who are visiting for a month or so, not
> > folks who are intending to attend and then graduate from some local
> > four-year school?
> >
> > And I reply that I'm sure that she is. The fact that you "would not
> > classify
> > putting someone up for a month or so as housing or feeding someone "for
> > compensation on a weekly or longer basis." (a phrase that defies logic,
> > but
> > I'll assume to take your meaning) makes no difference. There is nothing 
>in
> > the city code that distinguishes between one month or four years. Any
> > difference that has been discussed so far on this forum has been opinion
> > based on personnel feelings, not law. I find it funny and ironic that
> > folks
> > who would use this issue to attack one group and then turn around and
> > advocate the same thing, all the while claiming a difference based on 
>some
> > arbitrary duration and their subjective opinion. The fact that Mr.
> > Courtney
> > or anyone else might happen to have an opinion and elect to comment on 
>it
> > seems perfectly reasonable to me.
> >
> > gc
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> > To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 7:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
> >
> >
> >> Isn't Keely talking about folks who are visiting for a month or so, not
> >> folks who are intending to attend and then graduate from some local
> >> four-year school? I would not classify putting someone up for a month 
>or
> >> so as housing or feeding someone "for compensation on a weekly or 
>longer
> >> basis." It doesn't say housing or feeding "for a week or more."
> >>
> >> --
> >> Joe Campbell
> >>
> >> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> =============
> >> For the last couple of days posting to this forum has been a bit screwy
> >> from my computer. I hope this only shows up once.
> >>
> >>
> >> Wrong, as usual. City code quite clearly defines boarding house's as
> >> 12. Boarding House.
> >>
> >> A building occupied by its owner in which not more than six (6) 
>roomers,
> >> lodgersand/or boarders are housed or fed for compensation on a weekly 
>or
> >> longer basis. Ord. 2006-11, 08/07/06)With this in mind, I fail to see 
>how
> >> the situation that Ms. Mix is suggesting, and the previous boarding 
>house
> >> issue that you have decried with such vigor in the not so distant past,
> >> is
> >> any different -- aside from the players, of  course. It  seems that you
> >> would hold  Ms. Mix and friends to a different  standard than certain
> >> "others" that you do not hold in the same high regard.  I can't for the
> >> life of me see how it could be inappropriate for Dale to suggest that
> >> some
> >> small measure of consistency enter into the equation.
> >>
> >> gc
> >>  ----- Original Message -----
> >>  From: Tom Hansen
> >>  To: 'g. crabtree' ; 'Vision 2020'
> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:10 AM
> >>  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
> >>
> >>
> >>  Applying the quotation marks (") to my statement was merely meant to
> >> serve as my distinction of the two concepts, not to reflect any 
>specific
> >> legal boundary, ok?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Although the city code does not (in writing) define a "boarding 
>house",
> >> a
> >> session (not that long ago) of the city council verbally defined
> >> "boarding
> >> houses".  I could dig through my repository of audio files of City
> >> Council
> >> sessions, but I would consider that to be time and effort poorly spent 
>as
> >> I am certain that you can recall these sessions on your own.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  And lastly, Comb-Over's inappropriateness was apparent in his
> >> implication
> >> at:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  "I'm sure that everyone she recommends will have their conditional use
> >> permits thru the City, approved and paid for - just like every other
> >> international student's host family in Moscow has."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Enough said.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Tom Hansen
> >>
> >>  Moscow, Idaho
> >>
> >>  Intolerista Sergeant-at-Arms
> >>
> >>   "Most truths are so naked that people feel sorry for them and cover
> >> them
> >> up, at least a little bit."
> >>  - Edward R. Murrow
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>  From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at adelphia.net]
> >>  Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 7:02 AM
> >>  To: Tom Hansen; Vision 2020
> >>  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  After having glanced at the Moscow city code definition of a boarding
> >> house, could you please explain how providing accommodations to guests
> >> for
> >> a couple of weeks for compensation fails to meet the afore mentioned
> >> definition? Just exactly where in the code does it distinguish between  
>a
> >> "resident guest" and a "resident tenant"? And lastly, why would it be
> >> "inappropriate commentary" to discuss this type of topic on Dale's
> >> personal blog and yet be just ducky for you to do the same on your own
> >> web
> >> site, to which you thoughtfully provided a link, not to mention here on
> >> the V?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  gc
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Betsy, AVG is pleased to note that NO VIRUS was found in this incoming
>message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.0/525 - Release Date: 11/9/2006
>
>=======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================

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