[Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?

[Betsy Dickow]

Please keep this discussion civil and polite Crabtree.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
To: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?


> Joe,
>
> It seems to me that since you couldn't make much of a case against your
> favorite boogiemen in this latest discussion, you're mincing away with a
> major case of panty wad. Again. Might I suggest a little baby powder and
> loose trousers till the condition shows improvement?
>
> gc
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>
>
> Gary,
>
> It is not a logical stretch to note that your explanation is a bunch of
> evasive b-s. Imagine if everyone were to apply such reasoning to every 
> law!
> What a wonderful world that would be!
>
> It cracks me up when conservatives like you pretend to be men of 
> principle,
> accusing others of hypocrisy, and then use such slippery rhetoric to allow
> their friends to get off the hook!
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> Joe.
>
> Your kindness in offering me another chance to respond to your speculative
> questions is quite touching. As I said in my previous post, I've got no
> problem with you drawing what ever conclusions make you the happiest. That
> said...
>
> My understanding of what is and isn't a boarder remains unchanged.
>
> NSA "students" would not be violating any pertinent city code regardless.
>
> I am in favor of fair and equal application of sound law. Even the City
> realizes that it's codes concerning this matter are confused and
> unenforceable. Why should I criticize anyone for a hypothetical
> transgression when the governing body can't tell me precisely what the
> transgression is or how it differs from several other group living
> arraignments.
>
> Having said this, conclude what you will. To make the assertion that 
> because
> I won't join you in a hypothetical condemnation, I must therefore "believe
> that (my) friends are above the law and beyond contempt." seems like quite
> the logical stretch.
>
> gc
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 1:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>
>
> Gary,
>
> I asked you a few questions and you ignored all of them. Instead, you
> offered your all too usual array of insults and evasions. Given this, I 
> drew
> my own conclusions. Perhaps this was rash, so I'll give you another 
> chance.
>
> Now that you have a clearer understanding of what is and is not a boarder,
> after your recent extensive research on the subject, in the event that 
> there
> are actual violations by NSA students of the city code, will you join me 
> in
> condemning such violations?
>
> If you are unable to criticize your friends for even hypothetical 
> violations
> of the law, it seems reasonable for me to determine that you believe that
> your friends are above the law and beyond contempt. Which is precisely 
> what
> I concluded in my previous posts.
>
> Does my chain of reasoning make sense now?
>
> Best, Joe
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> Joe, you are a panic. Your ability to reach a silly conclusion based on 
> what
> you think you know is second to none. If I had your special ability to 
> read
> what isn't there into other peoples posts I'd be able to look at "J.
> O'Ford's" online lunacy and see At Swim-Two-Birds.
>
> Take from my response whatever will meet your expectations. It's clear 
> that
> if you don't see what you "thought" you would, you'll create it. This must
> be a useful talent to possess when it comes to maintaining your 
> hysterical,
> self-righteousness. If you need to assign someone to fulfill one of the
> antihero roles in your little mental melodrama, I'm only to happy to be of
> service.
>
> You're welcome,
> gc
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>
>
> So the short answer to at least one of my questions is that if someone is 
> a
> friend of yours and he breaks the law, then we should ignore it. To do
> otherwise would be to engage in "incessant carping."
>
> Even though this recent round of "incessant carping" began with a post by
> your friend, Dale Courtney, and that some of us were just responding to 
> his
> misleading analogies and false accusations, that is all beside the point
> because, after all, Dale is your friend and he gets to do whatever he 
> wants.
>
> Thanks, Gary! That's exactly what I thought. It explains your role in the
> NSA saga perfectly!
>
> Best, Joe
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> I didn't miss your point Joe, I dismissed it. The long and the short of 
> this
> topic is this. I did not accuse anyone of violating any laws. If you go 
> back
> and actually read the exchange between  Ms. Mix and myself you will find
> that I wished the students success in finding a local home to stay in and
> that their stay should be as pleasant as possible. In my previous posts I
> made exactly two points. The first was that the situation that Ms. Mix
> described in her original request could very easily be construed to meet 
> the
> city's definition for a boarding house (Ord. 2006-1, 08/07/06) and that I
> found that amusing and ironic. No amount of sophistry on your part can
> change this fact. It does and I was. Period. No matter how many, if's,
> perhaps, maybes, and might have's you throw in.
>
> The second point was that there was nothing about the topic which would 
> give
> it some sort of special dispensation from being fair game for comment and
> discussion, either on Dale Courtney's web site or any other. Once again, I
> don't see any room for discussion or disagreement.
>
> Everything else you drone on about is simply an exercise in arguing with
> yourself. (or some here to fore unintroduced third party, with your debate
> style it's difficult to tell) I do find your remark "The “weekly or 
>  longer”
> phrase here refers to, for instance, an exchange of room and board for 
> some
> kind of monetary compensation paid, by the boarder, on a WEEKLY, or 
> monthly,
> or yearly, etc. basis." to be interesting. Does this mean that by some
> modification of the payment schedule the folks who "host" NSA students can
> get you and your tolerance club to cease your incessant carping? I didn't
> think so.
>
> I hope you're enjoying the election,
> gc
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>
>
> Gary,
>
> Not surprisingly, you missed the point. Let me slow things down for you.
>
> I said nothing about there being something in "the city code that
> distinguishes between one month or four years." I said that there was
> something in the city code that distinguished between a guest who might 
> stay
> a month or longer from a boarder who is "housed or fed for compensation on 
> a
> weekly or longer basis."
>
> The “weekly or longer” phrase here refers to, for instance, an exchange of
> room and board for some kind of monetary compensation paid, by the 
> boarder,
> on a WEEKLY, or monthly, or yearly, etc. basis.
>
> Can you admit this much? If so, then there are CLEAR differences between 
> the
> situation with regard to Keely's friends and the situation with regard to
> NSA boarders.
>
> First, Keely's friends have VIOLATED NO LAWS. There are, as of yet, no
> Korean student boarders in Moscow and there has not, as of yet, been any
> WEEKLY (or longer) compensation paid by these non-existent boarders. In 
> the
> case of NSA students, the allegation, at least, is that there have been
> violations of the very code you note below, and that there are, as we 
> speak,
> continued violations of that code. The complaint by folks like myself is
> that this is part of a general pattern of disregard for city law and
> disrespect for folks who do not adopt Doug Wilson's narrow worldview.
>
> Second, Keely's original post requested that if anyone was "interested in
> hosting for a few weeks, with compensation, please e-mail" her friend. My
> point was that compensation for a few weeks was not the same thing as 
> WEEKLY
> compensation. I could have stated this more clearly, I admit, but I was in 
> a
> rush to get to my day job.
>
> Third, there was nothing in Keely’s original post suggesting what form 
> this
> compensation should take. If it is to take the form of food or odd jobs, 
> as
> Tom suggests, then I’m not sure how it could be construed as a violation 
> of
> the city code.
>
> Overall, Dale's comparison between the situation involving Keely's friends
> and the ones involving NSA students is like the comparison between apples
> and oranges.
>
> Let me close with a few questions. Since we now have a clearer 
> understanding
> of what is and is not a boarder, in the event that there are actual
> violations by NSA students of the city code, will you join me in 
> condemning
> such violations? If not, what should be done? Why is it that you rush to
> post about potential violations of the city code when it concerns Keely 
> and
> her friends yet ignore the allegations of actual violations of the city 
> code
> when it concerns your friends? Is there something about someone's being 
> your
> friend that makes him above the law and beyond contempt?
>
> Joe
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> Joe asks...
>
> Isn't Keely talking about folks who are visiting for a month or so, not
> folks who are intending to attend and then graduate from some local
> four-year school?
>
> And I reply that I'm sure that she is. The fact that you "would not 
> classify
> putting someone up for a month or so as housing or feeding someone "for
> compensation on a weekly or longer basis." (a phrase that defies logic, 
> but
> I'll assume to take your meaning) makes no difference. There is nothing in
> the city code that distinguishes between one month or four years. Any
> difference that has been discussed so far on this forum has been opinion
> based on personnel feelings, not law. I find it funny and ironic that 
> folks
> who would use this issue to attack one group and then turn around and
> advocate the same thing, all the while claiming a difference based on some
> arbitrary duration and their subjective opinion. The fact that Mr. 
> Courtney
> or anyone else might happen to have an opinion and elect to comment on it
> seems perfectly reasonable to me.
>
> gc
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 7:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>
>
>> Isn't Keely talking about folks who are visiting for a month or so, not
>> folks who are intending to attend and then graduate from some local
>> four-year school? I would not classify putting someone up for a month or
>> so as housing or feeding someone "for compensation on a weekly or longer
>> basis." It doesn't say housing or feeding "for a week or more."
>>
>> --
>> Joe Campbell
>>
>> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>> =============
>> For the last couple of days posting to this forum has been a bit screwy
>> from my computer. I hope this only shows up once.
>>
>>
>> Wrong, as usual. City code quite clearly defines boarding house's as
>> 12. Boarding House.
>>
>> A building occupied by its owner in which not more than six (6) roomers,
>> lodgersand/or boarders are housed or fed for compensation on a weekly or
>> longer basis. Ord. 2006-11, 08/07/06)With this in mind, I fail to see how
>> the situation that Ms. Mix is suggesting, and the previous boarding house
>> issue that you have decried with such vigor in the not so distant past, 
>> is
>> any different -- aside from the players, of  course. It  seems that you
>> would hold  Ms. Mix and friends to a different  standard than certain
>> "others" that you do not hold in the same high regard.  I can't for the
>> life of me see how it could be inappropriate for Dale to suggest that 
>> some
>> small measure of consistency enter into the equation.
>>
>> gc
>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: Tom Hansen
>>  To: 'g. crabtree' ; 'Vision 2020'
>>  Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:10 AM
>>  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>>
>>
>>  Applying the quotation marks (") to my statement was merely meant to
>> serve as my distinction of the two concepts, not to reflect any specific
>> legal boundary, ok?
>>
>>
>>
>>  Although the city code does not (in writing) define a "boarding house", 
>> a
>> session (not that long ago) of the city council verbally defined 
>> "boarding
>> houses".  I could dig through my repository of audio files of City 
>> Council
>> sessions, but I would consider that to be time and effort poorly spent as
>> I am certain that you can recall these sessions on your own.
>>
>>
>>
>>  And lastly, Comb-Over's inappropriateness was apparent in his 
>> implication
>> at:
>>
>>
>>
>>  "I'm sure that everyone she recommends will have their conditional use
>> permits thru the City, approved and paid for - just like every other
>> international student's host family in Moscow has."
>>
>>
>>
>>  Enough said.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Tom Hansen
>>
>>  Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>  Intolerista Sergeant-at-Arms
>>
>>   "Most truths are so naked that people feel sorry for them and cover 
>> them
>> up, at least a little bit."
>>  - Edward R. Murrow
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at adelphia.net]
>>  Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 7:02 AM
>>  To: Tom Hansen; Vision 2020
>>  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Guests or Tenants?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  After having glanced at the Moscow city code definition of a boarding
>> house, could you please explain how providing accommodations to guests 
>> for
>> a couple of weeks for compensation fails to meet the afore mentioned
>> definition? Just exactly where in the code does it distinguish between  a
>> "resident guest" and a "resident tenant"? And lastly, why would it be
>> "inappropriate commentary" to discuss this type of topic on Dale's
>> personal blog and yet be just ducky for you to do the same on your own 
>> web
>> site, to which you thoughtfully provided a link, not to mention here on
>> the V?
>>
>>
>>
>>  gc
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Betsy, AVG is pleased to note that NO VIRUS was found in this incoming 
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.0/525 - Release Date: 11/9/2006