[Vision2020] [] crossing the line

Fri May 19 14:56:14 PDT 2006

Michael,

  "The Elders of Christ Church Kick Pooh Out"  
  Liberals love you. 

  Best Regards,

  _DJA

Michael <metzler at moscow.com> wrote:                    st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }                              Donavan Writes:

    The  Liberal rules on Vision 2020 are simple and fair. If a liberal  expresses an opinion, and attacks you or a member of your family, that  is fine. If you attack back, respond, or explain yourself, you are  resorting to mudslinging and personal attacks. That is the way  Vision2020 works now, it is the way it has worked in the past, and it  is the way it will work in the future. . . .Vision 2020 is now just a  pointless listserve for people with big mouths and little brains to  express disgust in others that differ from them. Too bad, it could have  been something special. Now it is just the Ghetto of the Palouse.

    Me:

    Donavan,  I wish you would respond to those you disagree with in a more  dignified, charitable, and argumentative way.  There are  ‘liberals’ that post to this list that are capable of doing this, and  they have done so many enjoyable times over.  Considering that I  am just as ‘conservative’ as you, if not more so, and yet entirely  disagree with your assertions above, I would think that they require an  argument or some charitably placed supportive evidence.  I really  am hoping that this list doesn’t entirely implode before I get a chance  to enjoy the discussions here again, and so I’m going to ask you  Donovan, given your profession of Christianity, to help lead the way;  please respond to your opponents with disciplined kindness. In so far  as you want to assert what you have above, I will challenge the  veracity of your claims.  I do not believe this is asking much,  and I hope you don’t take it as my asking much; as you know, we are  commanded to do this by the
 incarnate God to whom you claim  allegiance.  I did not want to write a post like this, but I’m not  sure how I could continue my following of this list without expressing  this worry and exhortation. I think you have some good points that  should be heard, but they often get covered up by unnecessary rhetoric  and personal attacks. If this is done to you, then turn a cheek or  something.  Thank you. 

    Along these same lines, you might find the comments below applicable; I’m  pasted them from a recent entry on my own Blog.

    Thanks
    Michael
    www.poohsthink.com 

    You can  see Wilson’s  typical offensive move against the “intoleristas” here.  Wilson’s  dishonesty in dealing with Vision 2020 and the “intoleristas” has been  pointed out here in the Wood a number of times already. In fact, it was  my own “taking a peek” at this Vision 2020 stuff that helped open my  own eyes to what kind of stuff Wilson fed us kirkers on a weekly basis.  It has been standard practice for Wilson to find the most poorly  reasoned or prima facie false  statements uttered in the last month out of hundreds of posts (from the  standpoint of his followers anyway) and display it on his blog for  annihilation. The last time he did this, he claimed that what he was  presenting was the typical sort of argument one would find  on Vision 2020, when in fact, which Wilson  knew, it was the most untypical.
    For those  of you who do not follow Vision 2020 carefully, let me give you some basic  facts about our little situation here in Moscow.  Many of the common posters to Vision 2020 have intellectual and  argumentative abilities that compare to, and in some ways, surpass,  that of Wilson’s. Some of them are highly  rigorous, others more passionate, and others more witty. When up against Wilson  one on one, I’m sure they would have an interesting fight. But what of  Jones? Jones got off Vision 2020 the day I got on, and what he was  doing there was silly and offensive; it was certainly no real match for  the various passionate intellects that frequent there. But a balanced  analysis would not compare Wilson and Jones to Vision 2020 posters in  the first place. Not only are Vision 2020 guys and gals mere “laymen”  in contrast to the fearless national leaders at Anselm House, they have  all as a group been ridiculed consistently and confidently by Wilson  and other kirkers as
 blind, venomous idiots who can do nothing but band  together in secret to cook up the next evil and irrational plot against  Doug Wilson.
    Well,  have I mentioned anything yet about Doug Wilson being a liar? Here is a  perfect example of his deceit, deceit that I was lulled by for a total  of three years before joining the Vision 2020 group myself. Vision 2020  is primarily composed of all sorts of people, including conservatives,  liberals, secularists, agnostics, theists, conservative Christians,  liberal Christians, new Christians, old Christians, atheists, theists,  deists, veterans, lawyers, professors, writers, retired corporate  folks, and so on and so forth. In other words, it is composed of our  local Moscow  neighbors. Only the growing “Village” paranoia that Wilson is seeking to generate causes kirkers and Wilson’s  conservative sidekick Dale Courtney  to categorize and demonize “Venom2020” the way they do.
    So  to continue our comparison in a more balanced way, what of the  Greyfriar graduates who post on Vision 2020? or Mr. Farris? or what of  the purple flying-clown-elephant Deacon James? Any skim of Vision 2020  makes it clear that some of the most non-argumentative, irrational,  smug, arrogant, unhelpful posts come directly out from the educated  elite of the Kirk — although I’ve noticed a slight change of late.  Period; this is simply a fact. One of the last Kirker posts to me on  Vision 2020 had as its primary thesis that I had failed to spell  Greyfriars correctly. Another irrationally hurled accusations at me,  about 10 in three paragraphs in fact — and this is to a fellow kirker!  The question at this point folks, is not whether or not the kirkers on  Vision 2020 are displaying fine Christian culture — they most certainly  aren’t by any normal person’s definition of “Christian” or “culture.”  The question is rather what social group here in Moscow,  based on the
 thin society of Vision 2020, truly deserves the label of  “venom” and “intolerista.” Furthermore, and this makes Wilson’s last  attack against the “intoleristas” today all the more interesting, there  has been a nice barrage of non-kirker conservatives, conservative  Christians in fact, seen on Vision 2020. And it looks like they are  currently trying to win the venom and intolerista award.
    When  I joined the discussion at Vision 2020 we began having delightful  discussions; I had rational and patient listening ears waiting for me,  albeit backed with passionate and argumentative fingertips. I was able  to hash out my defense of my own highly offensive view of things till  the cows came home. But unfortunately, the typical North Idaho  community member does not take much stock in passionate religious and  political debate; Wilson  will no doubt play up on this, as will less daring local journalists  and politicians. One of the problems many folks will have with Vision  2020, whether they are in or outside the Kirk, is the passionate and  argumentative persistence they will find there. Don’t let the  newspapers fool you; some journalists just pee in their pants when  argumentatively challenged about their daddy’s religion. For some,  politics and religion are as hush hush as their adultery with the woman  next door. Who is it that despised Socrates? Who
 killed both him and  Jesus? It was both the politician and the local priest, and may we  never forget it.
    When  ever Dale is finished hiding behind his own Ultra-conserv blog, perhaps  he can join us on Vision 2020 again — it was after all his own moral  weakness that forced him to leave in the first place.

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