[Vision2020] Re: Only the short sighted think Death Penalty MustBe Aboli...

Sat May 6 15:41:52 PDT 2006

Dick et. al.

Some "liberals" do apply this logic to abortion.  As for the ones who don't,
according to your view, Joe Campbell has given a reply on this issue that
did my work for me.

I think abortion is not an issue that always breaks down into
"conservatives" who oppose abortion and "liberals" who will allow it.  For
example, many Catholics who are "liberals" on taxation and social programs
oppose abortion, and many libertarian "conservatives," often against
taxation and social programs, support a women's right to choose.  It is true
though that the abortion issue has hurt the democrats when some Catholics
who have in the past voted democrat can't now bring themselves to vote for
the party that is associated with a women's right to choose.  Of course part
of the republican master plan has been to use abortion as a way to damn the
democrats (those baby killers!) and make themselves look like such wonderful
supporters of the right to life.  But often the republicans who support this
approach have no problem, it appears, with killing tens of thousands of
innocent civilians in war, or allowing innocents to be executed, to achieve
a "greater good."

As Joe pointed out, this is logically inconsistent.

Thanks for the question...

Ted Moffett

On 5/4/06, rvrcowboy <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net> wrote:
>
>  Ted Moffett wrote:  "The death penalty in any nation is a tool that can
> be used to impose tyranny, even if it exists within a system that at this
> moment appears to respect justice, fairness and the rights of the
> individual."
>
> Ted,  why can't liberals apply this same logic to the most innocent, the
> unborn?
>
> Dick
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
> *To:* ToeKneeTime at aol.com
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 04, 2006 12:30 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Re: Only the short sighted think Death Penalty
> MustBe Aboli...
>
>
> Tony et. al.
>
> Anyone who has committed a crime deserving of the death penalty can be
> given life in prison without parole instead.  So then there is no
> recidivism, unless it occurs in prison, the prisoner escapes, or somehow the
> laws change to allow the prisoner out.  And please don't carp about the
> costs of life imprisonment... if dollars and cents quantified justice we'd
> let MBAs from Harvard determine who gets a quality trial and who does not,
> based on how much media time could be sold for the trial coverage.  And
> death penalty cases are very costly with the appeals process, etc.
>
> With life imprisonment without parole, if a mistake was made there is time
> to correct the injustice.  With the death penalty enforced if someone is
> later found innocent...
>
> Justice is not cheap.  If you want cheap justice, move to China.   You
> might find that your Christian beliefs (aggressive public opposition to
> forced abortions) and lifestyle draw the attention of the Chinese Communist
> Party, who can have you executed in short order (trumped up charges?), with
> minimal rights to a fair trial or access to an appeal, etc.
>
> The death penalty is a prime symptom of a dictatorship...Or is it one of
> the prime tools of a dictatorship?  Both?
>
> The death penalty in any nation is a tool that can be used to impose
> tyranny, even if it exists within a system that at this moment appears to
> respect justice, fairness and the rights of the individual.  This potential
> for abuse alone justifies banning the death penalty.  I don't trust the
> state to determine who gets to live or die based on a flawed legal system,
> nor do I trust that in the future the state may not have the machinery of
> the death penalty high jacked for the sake of
> military/economic/political/ideological "special interests."
>
> Support for the death penalty is symptomatic of those
> who, despite any appearances as critics of government regulation, are
> authoritarians at heart, who think the government should have the ultimate
> say in the life and death of human beings.  Talk about an egregious
> overextension of government power...!!!!  I can't imagine any power more
> egregious.  Well, OK, Winston (1984) was crushed as a human being by the
> state to make a statement that the state has the power to destroy (as in
> destroy the spirit, beliefs and love a human being followed) a human being
> who opposes said state, while they are alive, the point being this is worse
> than having the state simply execute its opponents, because it is a
> destruction of the very freedom seeking individualistic humanity in the soul
> of a human being that constitutes the essence of the opposition of the
> individual to the power of the state...
>
> You might want to consider the decision by former Illinois Republican
> Governor Ryan regarding the death penalty in Illinois, and also the work of
> the Innocence Project:
>
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june01/penalty_5-10.html
>
> http://www.innocenceproject.org/
>
> Ted Moffett
>
> On 5/3/06, ToeKneeTime at aol.com <ToeKneeTime at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >  ACS,
> >
> > No, no, you misunderstand.  I did not say that executing the innocent
> > was justified as a deterrent.  I was simply pointing out that any system
> > administered by fallible humans is going to result in some percentage of
> > errors.  I don't believe that we should respond to this unavoidable
> > consequence by dumping the entire program.  Your inclination to do exactly
> > that is understandable but potentially VERY costly.  I believe that the end
> > result would be a far GREATER loss of life do to recidivism.
> >
> > Hope this sheds more light on my position.
> >
> > Best,  --Tony
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
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> >
> >
>  ------------------------------
>
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