<div>Dick et. al.</div>
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<div>Some "liberals" do apply this logic to abortion. As for the ones who don't, according to your view, Joe Campbell has given a reply on this issue that did my work for me.</div>
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<div>I think abortion is not an issue that always breaks down into "conservatives" who oppose abortion and "liberals" who will allow it. For example, many Catholics who are "liberals" on taxation and social programs oppose abortion, and many libertarian "conservatives," often against taxation and social programs, support a women's right to choose. It is true though that the abortion issue has hurt the democrats when some Catholics who have in the past voted democrat can't now bring themselves to vote for the party that is associated with a women's right to choose. Of course part of the republican master plan has been to use abortion as a way to damn the democrats (those baby killers!) and make themselves look like such wonderful supporters of the right to life. But often the republicans who support this approach have no problem, it appears, with killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians in war, or allowing innocents to be executed, to achieve a "greater good."
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<div>As Joe pointed out, this is logically inconsistent.</div>
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<div>Thanks for the question...</div>
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<div>Ted Moffett<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/4/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">rvrcowboy</b> <<a href="mailto:rvrcowboy@clearwire.net">rvrcowboy@clearwire.net</a>> wrote:</span>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Ted Moffett wrote: <font face="Times New Roman" size="3">"The death penalty in any nation is a tool that can be used to impose tyranny, even if it exists within a system that at this moment appears to respect justice, fairness and the rights of the individual."
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Ted, why can't liberals apply this same logic to the most innocent, the unborn?</font></font></div>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dick </font></font></div>
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title="starbliss@gmail.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" target="_blank">Ted Moffett</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="ToeKneeTime@aol.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ToeKneeTime@aol.com" target="_blank">ToeKneeTime@aol.com</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 04, 2006 12:30 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Re: Only the short sighted think Death Penalty MustBe Aboli...</div>
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<div>Tony et. al.</div>
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<div>Anyone who has committed a crime deserving of the death penalty can be given life in prison without parole instead. So then there is no recidivism, unless it occurs in prison, the prisoner escapes, or somehow the laws change to allow the prisoner out. And please don't carp about the costs of life imprisonment... if dollars and cents quantified justice we'd let MBAs from Harvard determine who gets a quality trial and who does not, based on how much media time could be sold for the trial coverage. And death penalty cases are very costly with the appeals process, etc.
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<div>With life imprisonment without parole, if a mistake was made there is time to correct the injustice. With the death penalty enforced if someone is later found innocent...</div>
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<div>Justice is not cheap. If you want cheap justice, move to China. You might find that your Christian beliefs (aggressive public opposition to forced abortions) and lifestyle draw the attention of the Chinese Communist Party, who can have you executed in short order (trumped up charges?), with minimal rights to a fair trial or access to an appeal, etc.
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<div>The death penalty is a prime symptom of a dictatorship...Or is it one of the prime tools of a dictatorship? Both?</div>
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<div>The death penalty in any nation is a tool that can be used to impose tyranny, even if it exists within a system that at this moment appears to respect justice, fairness and the rights of the individual. This potential for abuse alone justifies banning the death penalty. I don't trust the state to determine who gets to live or die based on a flawed legal system, nor do I trust that in the future the state may not have the machinery of the death penalty high jacked for the sake of military/economic/political/ideological "special interests."
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<div>Support for the death penalty is symptomatic of those who, despite any appearances as critics of government regulation, are authoritarians at heart, who think the government should have the ultimate say in the life and death of human beings. Talk about an egregious overextension of government power...!!!! I can't imagine any power more egregious. Well, OK, Winston (1984) was crushed as a human being by the state to make a statement that the state has the power to destroy (as in destroy the spirit, beliefs and love a human being followed) a human being who opposes said state, while they are alive, the point being this is worse than having the state simply execute its opponents, because it is a destruction of the very freedom seeking individualistic humanity in the soul of a human being that constitutes the essence of the opposition of the individual to the power of the state...
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<div>You might want to consider the decision by former Illinois Republican Governor Ryan regarding the death penalty in Illinois, and also the work of the Innocence Project:</div>
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<div><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june01/penalty_5-10.html" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june01/penalty_5-10.html</a></div>
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<div><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.innocenceproject.org/" target="_blank">http://www.innocenceproject.org/</a></div>
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<div>Ted Moffett</div>
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<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/3/06, <b class="gmail_sendername"><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ToeKneeTime@aol.com" target="_blank">ToeKneeTime@aol.com</a></b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ToeKneeTime@aol.com" target="_blank">
ToeKneeTime@aol.com</a>> wrote:</span>
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<div>ACS,</div>
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<div>No, no, you misunderstand. I did not say that executing the innocent was justified as a deterrent. I was simply pointing out that any system administered by fallible humans is going to result in some percentage of errors. I don't believe that we should respond to this unavoidable consequence by dumping the entire program. Your inclination to do exactly that is understandable but potentially VERY costly. I believe that the end result would be a far GREATER loss of life do to recidivism.
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<div>Hope this sheds more light on my position.</div>
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<div>Best, --Tony</div></font></div><br>_____________________________________________________<br> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
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