[Vision2020] Wal-Mart: Replies to Donovan and Crabtree

Thu Mar 2 18:52:04 PST 2006

And the chorus limbers up it's
throats...MeMeMeMeMeMeMe...TooTooTooTooTooTooToo..yup sounds about right.
This is three, I'm done.

gc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
To: <joekc at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Wal-Mart: Replies to Donovan and Crabtree

>
> Visionaires,
>
> If Joe Campbell doesn't stop with the reasoned, well-stated arguments he's 
> tossed off just this afternoon (see former posts), he's going to ruin 
> Vision 2020s reputation among the conservatives.
>
> (Please?)
>
> Great points, Joe.
>
> keely
>
> From: joekc at adelphia.net
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Wal-Mart: Replies to Donovan and Crabtree
> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 17:49:59 -0500
>
> Donovan and Mr. Crabtree,
>
> Iâ?Tm sorry for the combined post but I have only one more post to use 
> today.
>
> Both of you used an interesting fallacy in response to a previous post of 
> mine on the proposed Super Wal-Mart.
>
> Mr. Crabtree wrote: â?oYour argument with regard to aesthetics doesn't fly 
> all that well either. â?¦ You didnâ?Tt pipe up about any of [previous] 
> developments, why the concern now? Sounds more like a case of not â?~in my 
> backyardâ?T syndrome than any real desire for architectural grace.â?
>
> Donovan wrote: â?oCan you please explain to me how it is that you can buy 
> plastics and gasoline from countries like Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia 
> etc., that have the worst human rights record in the world, yet at the 
> same time scorn Wal-Mart for buying products from other businesses that 
> manufacture their goods in China?â?
>
> In response, here is a story. For 15 weeks, children threw eggs at the 
> house of Mr. Crabtree-Arnold. One day, as he was walking to his car, Mr. 
> Crabtree-Arnold noticed young Tommy, throwing an egg at his house. Mr. 
> Crabtree-Arnold scolded Tommy, at which point Tommy replied: â?oFor 15 
> weeks kids have been throwing eggs at your house. You never said anything 
> against them, so why pick on me?â?
>
> Does that fact that Mr. Crabtree-Arnold never said anything prior to this 
> day mean that he has no reason to scold Tommy?
>
> Here are some comments to other points that youâ?Tve made:
>
> 1/ Donovan: â?oIf you believe that countries with bad human rights records 
> should be denied  jobs, and believe the US kills innocents overseas, then 
> why are you not  for exporting US jobs to countries with better human 
> rights records then our own?â?
>
> Reply: I love our country and I want to make it the best that it can be.
>
> 2/ Crabtree: â?oI would suggest that if you stand in the way of a place to 
> shop being built you are most assuredly dictating, in an albeit small way, 
> where folks can and can't shop.â?
>
> Reply: You are wrong. There is a difference between dictating what people 
> do and using oneâ?Ts words to influence what people do. The latter 
> respects that people have the capacities to reason and make decisions for 
> themselves. The former does not.
>
> Furthermore, by attempting to keep a Super Wal-Mart from coming into 
> Moscow, I am not â?odictating where people can shop.â? We have a Wal-Mart 
> and there is a Super Wal-Mart scheduled for Pullman. People will still be 
> able to shop at Wal-Mart.
>
> 3/ Crabtree: â?oâ?¦ having a Wal Mart on the east side of town would seem 
> to be in keeping with the â?~smart growthâ?T mantra I keep hearing you MCA 
> types carry on about. Isn't the idea to have shopping be within walking 
> distance of residential development?â?
>
> Reply: You must be joking. Do you think that Super Wal-Mart would plan for 
> a gas station on location if the intent were only to increase the level of 
> walking customers? If this reply were correct, it would make a mockery of 
> the economic arguments in support of having a Super Wal-Mart in town, 
> which only work if customers beyond the east side of Moscow visit the 
> store often. Part of my concern with having a Super Wal-Mart nearby is 
> that I already have a difficult time walking or riding my bike to 
> different places in Moscow as it is. A Super Wal-Mart on Route 8 will only 
> make matters worse.
>
> 4/ Donovan: â?oJust because a place offers low prices does not mean that 
> they are exploiting others.â?
>
> Reply: I didnâ?Tt suggest this argument. I said that Wal-Mart happened to 
> offer low prices because they exploit others. Iâ?Tm not claiming that this 
> is true because of some general rule. Crabtree asks that I provide 
> evidence for exploitation in the form of some pro-Wal-Mart website and, 
> well, I guess I canâ?Tt do that. Clearly there is a problem here since 
> both of you seem to think that any evidence in support of my claim is 
> prejudiced since it is â?¦. well, evidence in support of something you 
> donâ?Tt believe.
>
> I did give just one small example of exploitation. Part of the reason that 
> Wal-Mart offers low prices is that many of their products are manufactured 
> in countries that fail to recognize the concept of a human right. Point 
> out that other stores are guilty of the same and Iâ?Tll point you to the 
> Tommy story above. Iâ?Tm not perfect but at least I can try to stand up to 
> principles in which I truly believe as best as I can. I donâ?Tt condemn 
> people who think otherwise. I do wonder why people worry so much about 
> whether we recite the pledge of allegiance instead of just living in 
> accordance with the thoughts and sentiments it conveys: â?oliberty and 
> justice for all.â?
>
> 5/ â?oP.S. Tony, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes a bit here but when it 
> comes to our resident junior philosopher's musings there's plenty 
> â?~wrongnessâ?T for ten folks to respond.â?
>
> Reply: Iâ?Tm so glad you included this PS. Otherwise it would be difficult 
> to refer to you as â?othe guy who is unable to say anything to me without 
> insulting me.â?
>
> Until tomorrow!
>
> Best, Joe
>
>
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