[Vision2020] RE: Fourth Amendment Not Partisan Issue

Thu Mar 2 15:09:49 PST 2006

Ted

I am concerned as you are about possible mis-use of FISA.  Frankly, in the 
case of physical searchs, the warrantless approach that was advocated and 
sold to Congress by Reno makes absolute shambles of the Constitution.  FISA 
needs to be revisited and perhaps now is the time to do so.

If indeed people in the Bush administration are tapping phones in domestic 
spying that is unrelated to National Security, then I wold have to say that 
action needs to be taken.  In the case of the DOJ back in the early 1990's 
that action was calling the agencies into account.  The Senate INtellegence 
Committee is going to have to take the matter up, something that is 
advisable regardless.

On Verizon, I am not sure that they were part of the pay offs that were 
carrried out back in 1996-98, though I think that AT&T managed to snag 
cvlose to a quarter billion for adding specialty wire tapping devices into 
phones.

Phil Nisbet

>From: "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com>
>To: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>CC: chapandmaize at hotmail.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Fourth Amendment Not Partisan Issue
>Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:07:21 -0800
>
>All:
>
>Stop this silly partisan bickering...!  The Fourth Amendment is not a
>partisan issue!  And Phil is quite right that our constitutional 
>protections
>were undermined during the Clinton years in serious ways.  Does this 
>justify
>the Bush administration's constitutional violations?
>
>Phil wrote:
>
>"Now bring me a case of the Bush administration conducting wire tapping
>without warrant on a US citizen in a domestic political matter..."
>
>Given the fact the NSA has bypassed the FISA court that oversees
>intelligence gathering spy operations, and the extreme secrecy of these
>operations, how can we know whether the Bush administration has been spying
>domestically, for domestic internal affairs, on US citizens without a
>warrant, for any reason whatsoever?  And isn't this the reason there is a
>need for the oversight of a court to monitor who the government
>domestically is spying on for what reason?  And the reason the Bush
>administration's arrogant dismissal of the FISA court's oversight is such a
>troubling assertion of power that undermines constitutional protections?
>
>The FISA court offers generous leeway for approval of intelligence 
>gathering
>spy operations, even allowing legal wiretapping without a warrant for a
>period of time as long as a warrant is sought within 48-72 hours.  I know,
>of course, the argument is made that in the modern age of instant e-mail 
>and
>Internet communications and disposable cell phones, spying must be 
>conducted
>differently to accommodate these new technologies.
>
>But the FISA court should still have access to the information regarding
>who, when and where a wiretap was conducted, to act as a shield against
>government abuses of the power to conduct surveillance on its own
>citizens. The Bush administration's arrogant dismissal of this court cannot
>be defended by anyone who seeks to firmly uphold the Fourth Amendment.
>
>Some of the major US corporations involved in data transmission of
>communications are complicit with the US government in violating US 
>citizens
>Fourth Amendment rights and breaking other laws in the NSA spy program.  So
>much for the capitalist so called "free market" protecting our
>constitutional rights.  I suppose as long as their corporate lobbyists can
>control US federal legislation, they are more than willing to cooperate in
>undermining the US Constitution.
>
>Don Coombs, you might want to reevaluate Verizon in a whole new light:  
>they
>seem to think it's OK to break laws to assist our government in spying on
>us:
>
>http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2855
>
>Internationally, Microsoft, Google and Yahoo have also complied with the
>Chinese Communist Party in various ways to restrict free speech in China,
>even handing over information that has landed Chinese citizens in jail
>merely for free political speech that we take for granted.
>
>Read about it:
>
>http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/060216/1/3ypo0.html
>
>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/228344_msftchina14.html
>
>"Those who surrender freedom for security deserve neither."
>
>Benjamin Franklin
>---------------------
>
>Ted Moffett
>
>
>On 3/1/06, Phil Nisbet <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > James
> >
> > Now you are proving yourself to be a complete raving looney.
> >
> > If you bother to go to the record, you will find that both I and Lemhi
> > County Sheriff Bret Barsalou testified before House and Senate 
>Committees
> > on
> > illegal surveliance.  The hearings were covered by the papers, so you
> > should
> > not have to tough a time finding them.  If you want copies of the papers
> > from the time period I will be glad to provide them.
> >
> > I suggested off line that if you needed proof from a source other than a
> > Republican that you can call Jackson Hole Attorney and Liberal Democrat
> > Gerry Spence.  Gerry is a strong Civil Libertarian and has handled a lot
> > of
> > case involving misconduct by Federal law enforcement during that time
> > frame.
> >
> > Similarly, the ACLU handled a large number of cases during that time 
>frame
> > involving wire tapping on domestic targets.  If you read what they had 
>to
> > say, they claimed that of 2.1 million phone conversation recorded by the
> > DOJ
> > from 1993-1995, 1.5 million of the calls were not related to any law
> > enforcement purpose.
> >
> > I testified at the hearings in Boise and Bret before both the committee 
>in
> > Boise and the ones in DC.  I may even have tape recording of Bret's
> > testimony in DC if you care to watch it.
> >
> > Bret testified that not only were illegal activities occurring, but that
> > when he tried to call a halt to actions by certain Federal Agents doing
> > warrantless searches, he received threatening phone calls for DOJ.  Its
> > part
> > of the Congressional record, but hey, go back to old copies of the Idaho
> > Statesman and I am sure that you can read a blow by blow free of GOP 
>taint
> > if that's your trip.
> >
> > You see, James, you are not willing to accept that your team is
> > corrupt.  I
> > am only too willing to admit that there are members of the GOP who think
> > themselves above the law and only to willing if and when they are found
> > guilty of such actions to see them punished to the full extent of the 
>law.
> > But you are unwilling to accept that even one Liberal Democrat would tap 
>a
> > phone, spy on GOP opponents, try to quash local law enforcement whistle
> > blowing on such action or any of the rest.
> >
> > You want to call half of America, the GOP half; scum and idiots, then
> > suggest that we all work together.  Why exactly are we going to work 
>with
> > somebody who calls us all liars and scum bags?
> >
> > Frankly James, you are a small person who does not do his own research 
>and
> > can only mouth the responses that somebody else feeds you.  Wake up and
> > read
> > some things from something other than one of your partisan
> > websites.  Nobody
> > is clean in politics, not you hero Bill Clinton, or Albert Gore, or 
>Janet
> > Reno for certain.
> >
> > Now, bring me a case of the Bush administration conducting wire tapping
> > without warrant on a US Citizen in a domestic political matter, not the
> > current cases that involve overseas calls and foreign subjects and
> > national
> > security, but tapping the phones of voters who disagree with the Bush
> > Administration in domestic politics.  A congressional hearing, an FBI
> > file,
> > some sort of proof please and not the nattering you seem to do so well.
> >
> > Phil Nisbet
> >
> >
> > >From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
> > >To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >Subject: [Vision2020] ignorant Republican tactic
> > >Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:36:48 -0800
> > >
> > >The tactic of the Republican party of baffling everyone with bull was
> > >demonstrated by both Phil and Pat today on this list.
> > >
> > >Their ignorant little Swift boat tactic is not only stupid and
> > unproductive
> > >but it is getting awfully old besides.... as in tiresome.
> > >
> > >When Phil reads  my post that mentioned Bushes' illegal wire taps he
> > >babbles about some make believe wire tapping conspiracy against him by
> > the
> > >Clinton administration. Of course this is the first time anyone has 
>heard
> > >of it, while Kenneth Starr spent 5 years digging up dirt on the 
>Clintons
> > >for the Republican party. When I asked for proof of this great 
>conspiracy
> > >(off list), none was offered....I just got more outlandish babble about
> > >more unsubstantiated conspiracies committed by the Clintons and Janet
> > Reno.
> > >
> > >It has become their natural instinct to lie and mislead to win a
> > contrived
> > >argument that means nothing. It is time for you childess little 
>children
> > of
> > >Bush to realize the facts of your chosen ass of a president and pull 
>your
> > >heads out of the republican handbook (read Rove) of devious 
>maneuverings
> > >and become grownups that deal with the truth. The crap you spew is
> > getting
> > >our country nowhere but the wrong place.
> > >
> > >Pat, the other follower of the Rove tactic goes off protecting Bushes
> > >attack on our constitution by ranting about throw away cell phones and
> > how
> > >they make it OK to illegally spy on American citizens. The CIA said 
>that
> > >none of the taps have given then anything but dead end leads to pizza
> > >delivery boys and such and yet Pat claims that they only;y tap overseas
> > >calls. Then Pat in her simple minded way goes on to say that I don't
> > >understand the complexities of the world. A stupid remark if there ever
> > >was.
> > >
> > >Like I said before "My Momma says the only thing more stupid than a
> > >republican is more than one Republican"  these two clowns epitomize 
>what
> > my
> > >momma said.
> > >
> > >Once again I will say the fact that Bush has run our country down in so
> > >many ways is not about Clinton vs. Bush nor is it about Democrats vs.
> > >Republicans; it is about the American people vs. a government
> > nonresponsive
> > >to its citizens needs or desires. It is about a government that is
> > >deliberately placing the country in an impossible debt situation to 
>where
> > >we spend almost as much on interest on the accumulated debt as we do 
>our
> > >defense. It is about a government that has delivered the loss of our
> > >strategic manufacturing sector. We all know the long list of grievances
> > we
> > >have against this government, I won't pile them up here, but I will 
>once
> > >again mention that this President and his VP as well as his cabinet
> > >deceived the American people and congress to take us to a war that is
> > still
> > >escalating....still sending our young people home in body bags and
> > savagely
> > >wounded. We have to get rid of this mess and get America back on the
> > right
> > >track. Enough bullshit and deception, lets work together to save our
> > >country.
> > >
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