[Vision2020] answering g. crabtree
keely emerinemix
kjajmix1 at msn.com
Sat Jun 24 23:23:46 PDT 2006
If I were one of the Kirk's "men of chest," I guess I'd answer with "oohhh,
ooohhhh, I know this one!" but I think Gary's question -- why criticize
Christ Church?-- is too important to not treat seriously, although I can
imagine that the Princess and the sports boyz are already guffawing . . .
Still, I'm pleased to jump in and ask only that Gary and his pals consider
what I've written, knowing that I write it as a Bible-believing Christian
woman and critic of Doug Wilson.
The reason that Christ Church and its various spokes and spokesmen are
"solely taken to task for philosophy's that could be laid equally at the
door of any number of other denominations," as Gary put it, is that while
many other Moscow-area churches hold to some similar core beliefs, none
holds to some of the peripherals -- the "harmonious" nature of slavery, for
example, or the stoning of gays, or communion and baptism for toddlers --
that the Kirk does, nor is there any other church that practices a gleeful
"screw you" approach to dialogue with its neighbors.
For example, Bridge Bible Church is largely fundamental in its approach to
theology, as are the three or four Southern, Fundamentalist and Independent
Baptist churches in town. All have pastors who consider homosexual acts to
be sinful, just as they consider heterosexual acts outside of marriage to be
sinful, and all profess to a distaste for the sinfulness of the world around
them. They believe in and practice strict separation of roles in the
church, if not society and home, based on gender. They join other
self-identified evangelical churches in town in believing the Bible to be
the inerrant word of God and are as politically conservative, in general, as
they are theologically conservative. Some, like White Pine Baptist Church,
are King James-only and tend to be more isolationist; others, like Bridge,
adhere to all modern translations of Scripture and strive to engage with
their neighbors. Still, they are, in doctrine if not in practice, fairly
similar in their beliefs -- amongst each other and, in regards to the
fundamentals of conservative evangelicalism, are not terribly different from
Christ Church.
With one exception -- evangelism, the public proclamation and living of the
gospel, is important to these churches. They would sooner fold up than
offend their neighbors without reason. They might, for example, be willing
to offend folks by proclaiming that sex before marriage is a sin, but they
absolutely would not risk damage to the Gospel by turning out their young
men to hurl invective and bigoted, foolish, or simply pointless rhetorical
bombs at those outside the fold -- the hurt they believe they would cause
their Lord and Savior precludes such a thing, and anyone purporting to
represent them, or their Christ, who acted like the Kirk's young men have
recently on Vision would be yanked back into the pews and taught a better
way. Of course, those teaching would have the moral authority to correct
bad behavior, having taken pains to not engage in any themselves, and when
accusations were made against them, they would consider the merits thereof
without deflecting criticism with inane appeals to prooftexts of Scripture
that get them off the hook and allow them to avoid private examination of
conscience and conduct.
Now, given that CC is in the "hard Calvinist" strand of the faith, that kind
of concern about public witness is seemingly not terribly important. After
all, devoted and true Calvinists believe that God, having already chosen --
and chosen "for His good pleasure" -- either the salvation or damnation of
the world's people, has no particularly charge for the church to conduct
itself in a manner that might win men and women to Christ. Why bother?
First of all, the die has been cast -- the actions, for better or worse, of
the confessing church won't do a thing to affect the inclination or ability
of any person to seek and find Jesus Christ, so why bother with evangelism,
or even simply acting in a way that doesn't needlessly offend. Second, if
God, in His sovereign wisdom and will, has actually created people for the
sole person of damning them to hell -- and that "for His pleasure" -- isn't
it a little fawning, a little foolish, to exhibit more care and concern for
the unbeliever than their Creator does? And, in fact, wouldn't being one of
the "chosen" not put you on the side of the God who hates them so and takes
joy in their death? Does that actually provoke warm feelings of concern and
affection for your presumably "unchosen" neighbors? Remember that it's not
necessary that you judge correctly who's "in" and who's "out" -- they'll
come, or not, when God says so, so nothing you do matters. Not for
eternity, not for salvation, not for evangelism, not for even the mildest
motivation to engage in less obnoxious behavior. If God has decreed open
season on the pagan, then there's a fieldhouse full of boys who'll take up
their pitiful slings and arrows to get the ball rolling.
And so you have a church, then, whose pastor and elders and seminarians and
college students and congregants feel free to put out bogus press releases
promising topless lectures, who publish a magazine whose bloated
self-importance is only a little less offensive than its reliance on
scatological humor; who seemingly can't abide by simple rules for the
existence of boarding houses and schools; who engages in imprecatory prayers
against perceived enemies and wait hopefully for the destruction of public
schools; who, to put it charitably, botched the handling and reporting of
the two sex offenders in its midst and had the audacity then to blame gays
and liberals for the church's subsequent black eye; who steadfastly acts as
though testicles and an arrogant nature trump maturity and knowledge when it
comes to church leadership; who court and influence public officials in ways
that no other church would dare -- when not lying about them on their blogs;
who have managed to orchestrate campaigns of mockery and derision against
their critics and who keep some people in the church because they're too
afraid to leave; who crow and howl about ugly, unloved liberal women,
pathetic ex-hippies, Intoleristas and sodomites and who clearly have no love
for the people their God most wants them to sacrificially love and serve.
I may disagree with some of the theology of Christian churches on both the
liberal and conservative points on the spectrum, but I gladly call those in
them sisters and brothers. With the leadership of Christ Church and with
many of the mostly male voices emanating from it, I'm not at all able to do
so, gladly or otherwise. I don't expect them to care.
But you ought to. You ought to expect that Moscow's biggest population of
thuggish, rude, mocking and belligerant bullies would not be found in a
church. And you ought to expect that those who share the fundamentals of
their Gospel would have the courage to stand in conscience against them.
Standing firm, because for me to live is Christ --
keely
From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
To: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
CC: Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church and freedom of religion
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:59:32 -0700
Joe defiantly states " A better explanation is that there is more to the
story than Gary suggests."
OK! Have at it then. What specifically is it about this group of people that
elicits the level of criticism displayed here. How are they a danger to
freedom of religion in Moscow? In what way are they a detriment to the
enjoyment of life in our fair city? Why is Christ Church solely taken to
task for philosophy's that could be laid equally at the doors of any number
of other denominations? The fact that the group of detractors is diverse in
no way explains what it is that makes your target unique. I am not going to
argue any particular point of doctrine for Mr. Wilson and his congregation.
As a nonmember, I would be quite unqualified, but as a community member and
neighbor, I do feel a small need to challenge the blind assertions that this
group is somehow evil or deserving of the vitriol and invective that is
hurled against it on this forum. In your explanation, please include for us
why any point that you care to make can be only said of C.C. and not leveled
against the Roman Catholics, the Latter-Day Saints, the Christian
Scientists, the Baptists or any other of a number of other religious groups
in the area. If you can't come up with something totally unique to Pastor
Wilson and Co., please explain why you don't attack these other groups with
the same fervor and ferocity that you reserve for them. I anxiously await
your explanation.
Sincerely,
G. Crabtree
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
Cc: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Paul Rumelhart"
<godshatter at yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church and freedom of religion
As Gary notes, Mr. Rumelhart, it is "strange" that "a group of a couple
dozen, mostly rational ... people who have for reasons not clearly
explained,
singled out this faith community for 'special' attention." A little bit too
strange to be true, in fact. The group of CC critics include Christians and
non-Christians, liberals and conservatives, former members of CC and
atheists. Gary's explanation does not make any sense in light of this --
unless you regularly believe in unexplained mass hallucinations. A better
explanation is that there is more to the story than Gary suggests.
--
Joe Campbell
---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:
=============
Mr. Rumelhart, allow me to offer up a slightly different perspective. I am
not and never have been a member of Christ Church and am in no way beholding
to them. I have lived in this community for over four decades, back when the
only Wilson I was personally aware of was the pediatrician who introduced me
to the peculiar and startling convention of "turn your head and cough." Like
Joe, I agree with some of their views and not others. I believe that like
almost all other religions, C.C. believes that it has a handle on the truth
and would very much like to share it with as many members of the community
as possible. Not out of malice or a desire for conquest but rather the
desire to gift others with something that they think is exciting and
wonderful. I have dealt with many members of this congregation, including
those that have been deemed "insiders" by others on this list, over the last
few years and have found most all of them to be pleasant people who have
never tried to "push their views" on me in any way despite the many
opportunities they might have had. They have never shown up on my door step
unannounced or arrived at my place of business with pamphlets in hand,
unlike some other denominations which also share our little berg. They have,
on the few occasions that I have asked, answered questions I've put to them
directly and politely. What you witness on vision 2020 is more then a little
strange. You see a group of a couple dozen, mostly rational (with a few
glaring exceptions) people who have for reasons not clearly explained,
singled out this faith community for "special" attention. Even when I have
sat down for face to face discussion with some of these folks I have not
received a clear or compelling answer as to why the animus for Wilson and
friends and not other groups which hold similar worldviews. I believe that
were you to make your inquiry's out in the general populace of Moscow you
would not find the level of hostility that you see exhibited here.
Regards,
G. Crabtree
P.S Welcome to Moscow. Aside from this forum, it's a friendly place to
reside.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church and freedom of religion
>Paul writes: “Opponents of Christ Church: Do you believe that Freedom of
>Religion trumps your own personal views of their theology? Are you willing
>to live and let live if they truly wish not to push their views on
>others?"
>
>No and yes; well, sort of. I have no fear that the folks from CC are going
>to "push their views" on me. Some of their views I already accept and the
>ones that I don't I am unlikely to accept no matter how hard they push. So
>this isn't really the issue.
>
>I have a hard time believing that the more vocal members of CC -- Doug
>Wilson, Dale Courtney (spell check?), Ed Iverson -- are just expressing
>their views. Check out the posting on Vision 2020 from Princess Taro
>Tanaka, dated Friday, June 23, 2006 10:44 PM. Do you think he’s merely
>expressing his views about “sodomites� Or is he using this venue as an
>opportunity to fling insults at a group that he despises, all in the name
>of Christ? When Wilson suggests that slavery wasn’t as bad as we thought
>it was, is this a viewpoint that he is bringing up for debate? Ask your
>African-American friends what they think about this "debate".
>
>Keep in mind that many of the critics of CC are Christians. So it isn’t
>really a battle of one religious group against the leftist-Intoleristas.
>That is just a smoke-screen.
>
>--
>Joe Campbell
>
>---- Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>=============
>I am new here, so forgive my questions. I've read a bit on this list of
>the back-and-forth postings concerning this one church and it's left me
>confused. I've read the article in the Blot about the church, as well.
>I should also mention that one of my closest friends is a member of the
>church, even though we rarely if ever agree on theology.
>
>What it all boils down to for me is this one simple question: Does the
>leadership of Christ Church respect freedom of religion? Are they
>pushing some kind of agenda to make over Moscow into a Christian-only
>area?
>
>The rest of the discussions don't interest me, for the most part. My
>theological views are pretty much orthogonal to those of Christ Church
>members as I understand them, so it's pointless for me to debate about
>them. I could care less if they serve alcohol at Trinity Fest, I'll
>leave that to the people whose job it is to make those decisions. The
>submission of women topic doesn't bother me because the women of that
>church don't seem to have any problems with it. I don't even really
>care about the whole Sitler thing because there are so many
>inconsistencies between both versions of events that I'll probably never
>know what really happened or who should have done what when.
>
>If we freedom-loving people of Moscow practice what we preach, then why
>be up in arms about their views? Why worry if they are successful?
>More power to them.
>
>However, if they are truly trying to stifle freedom of religion in
>others here in the community then I will be worried.
>
>Members of Christ Church: Do you wish to rework Moscow into a Christ
>Church-derived paradise? Or do you believe fully in Free Will?
>
>Opponents of Christ Church: Do you believe that Freedom of Religion
>trumps your own personal views of their theology? Are you willing to
>live and let live if they truly wish not to push their views on others?
>
>Paul
>
>If I'm being presumptious here, I'm sorry. I came here hoping for
>reasoned debate and see mostly mud-slinging and name-calling by both
>sides.
>
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