[Vision2020] Christ Church and freedom of religion

Sat Jun 24 19:59:32 PDT 2006

Joe defiantly states " A better explanation is that there is more to the 
story than Gary suggests."
OK! Have at it then. What specifically is it about this group of people that 
elicits the level of criticism displayed here. How are they a danger to 
freedom of religion in Moscow? In what way are they a detriment to the 
enjoyment of life in our fair city? Why is Christ Church solely taken to 
task for philosophy's that could be laid equally at the doors of any number 
of other denominations? The fact that the group of detractors is diverse in 
no way explains what it is that makes your target unique. I am not going to 
argue any particular point of doctrine for Mr. Wilson and his congregation. 
As a nonmember, I would be quite unqualified, but as a community member and 
neighbor, I do feel a small need to challenge the blind assertions that this 
group is somehow evil or deserving of the vitriol and invective that is 
hurled against it on this forum. In your explanation, please include for us 
why any point that you care to make can be only said of C.C. and not leveled 
against the Roman Catholics, the Latter-Day Saints, the Christian 
Scientists, the Baptists or any other of a  number of other religious groups 
in the area. If you can't come up with something totally unique to Pastor 
Wilson and Co., please explain why you don't attack these other groups with 
the same fervor and ferocity that you reserve for them. I anxiously await 
your explanation.

Sincerely,
G. Crabtree
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
Cc: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Paul Rumelhart" 
<godshatter at yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church and freedom of religion

As Gary notes, Mr. Rumelhart, it is "strange" that "a group of a couple 
dozen, mostly rational ... people who have for reasons not clearly 
explained,
singled out this faith community for 'special' attention." A little bit too 
strange to be true, in fact. The group of CC critics include Christians and 
non-Christians, liberals and conservatives, former members of CC and 
atheists. Gary's explanation does not make any sense in light of this --  
unless you regularly believe in unexplained mass hallucinations. A better 
explanation is that there is more to the story than Gary suggests.

--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:

=============
Mr. Rumelhart, allow me to offer up a slightly different perspective. I am
not and never have been a member of Christ Church and am in no way beholding
to them. I have lived in this community for over four decades, back when the
only Wilson I was personally aware of was the pediatrician who introduced me
to the peculiar and startling convention of "turn your head and cough." Like
Joe, I agree with some of their views and not others. I believe that like
almost all other religions, C.C. believes that it has a handle on the truth
and would very much like to share it with as many members of the community
as possible. Not out of malice or a desire for conquest but rather the
desire to gift others with something that they think is exciting and
wonderful. I have dealt with many members of this congregation, including
those that have been deemed "insiders" by others on this list, over the last
few years and have found most all of them to be pleasant people who have
never  tried to "push their views" on me in any way despite the many
opportunities they might have had. They have never shown up on my door step
unannounced or arrived at my place of business with pamphlets in hand,
unlike some other denominations which also share our little berg. They have,
on the few occasions that I have asked, answered questions I've put to them
directly and politely. What you witness on vision 2020 is more then a little
strange. You see a group of a couple dozen, mostly rational (with a few
glaring exceptions) people who have for reasons not clearly explained,
singled out this faith community for "special" attention. Even when I have
sat down for face to face discussion with some of these folks I have not
received a clear or compelling answer as to why the animus for Wilson and
friends and not other groups which hold similar worldviews. I believe that
were you to make your inquiry's out in the general populace of Moscow you
would not find the level of hostility that you see exhibited here.

Regards,
G. Crabtree

P.S Welcome to Moscow. Aside from this forum, it's a friendly place to
reside.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church and freedom of religion

> Paul writes: “Opponents of Christ Church: Do you believe that Freedom of
> Religion trumps your own personal views of their theology? Are you willing
> to live and let live if they truly wish not to push their views on
> others?"
>
> No and yes; well, sort of. I have no fear that the folks from CC are going
> to "push their views" on me. Some of their views I already accept and the
> ones that I don't I am unlikely to accept no matter how hard they push. So
> this isn't really the issue.
>
> I have a hard time believing that the more vocal members of CC -- Doug
> Wilson, Dale Courtney (spell check?), Ed Iverson -- are just expressing
> their views. Check out the posting on Vision 2020 from Princess Taro
> Tanaka, dated Friday, June 23, 2006 10:44 PM. Do you think he’s merely
> expressing his views about “sodomites”? Or is he using this venue as an
> opportunity to fling insults at a group that he despises, all in the name
> of Christ? When Wilson suggests that slavery wasn’t as bad as we thought
> it was, is this a viewpoint that he is bringing up for debate? Ask your
> African-American friends what they think about this "debate".
>
> Keep in mind that many of the critics of CC are Christians. So it isn’t
> really a battle of one religious group against the leftist-Intoleristas.
> That is just a smoke-screen.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> =============
> I am new here, so forgive my questions.  I've read a bit on this list of
> the back-and-forth postings concerning this one church and it's left me
> confused.  I've read the article in the Blot about the church, as well.
> I should also mention that one of my closest friends is a member of the
> church, even though we rarely if ever agree on theology.
>
> What it all boils down to for me is this one simple question:  Does the
> leadership of Christ Church respect freedom of religion?  Are they
> pushing some kind of agenda to make over Moscow into a Christian-only
> area?
>
> The rest of the discussions don't interest me, for the most part.  My
> theological views are pretty much orthogonal to those of Christ Church
> members as I understand them, so it's pointless for me to debate about
> them.  I could care less if they serve alcohol at Trinity Fest, I'll
> leave that to the people whose job it is to make those decisions.  The
> submission of women topic doesn't bother me because the women of that
> church don't seem to have any problems with it.  I don't even really
> care about the whole Sitler thing because there are so many
> inconsistencies between both versions of events that I'll probably never
> know what really happened or who should have done what when.
>
> If we freedom-loving people of Moscow practice what we preach, then why
> be up in arms about their views?  Why worry if they are successful?
> More power to them.
>
> However, if they are truly trying to stifle freedom of religion in
> others here in the community then I will be worried.
>
> Members of Christ Church: Do you wish to rework Moscow into a Christ
> Church-derived paradise?  Or do you believe fully in Free Will?
>
> Opponents of Christ Church: Do you believe that Freedom of Religion
> trumps your own personal views of their theology?  Are you willing to
> live and let live if they truly wish not to push their views on others?
>
> Paul
>
> If I'm being presumptious here, I'm sorry.  I came here hoping for
> reasoned debate and see mostly mud-slinging and name-calling by both
> sides.
>
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