[Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash: Roles & Submission

[debismith at moscow.com]

Thank you Keely, for a cogent and accurate assessment. I am often in awe of the intelligent 
folks who post to V2020 (as much as I am disgusted with some other posters....can't have 
everything...) 
Debi R-S

From:           	"keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
To:             	metzler at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject:        	RE: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash: Roles & Submission
Date sent:      	Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:12:24 -0700
Copies to:      	

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I appreciate Michael's comments, although I find myself more in agreement 
with J Ford.  Fidelity to Christ and Scripture requires submission, all of 
us to one another -- regardless of gender, race, or any other construct that 
a fallen world uses to divide us.  Submission based on patriarchy is 
non-Biblical and is not the submission of two Spirit-led individuals to one 
another, but an exercise in oppression.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I can't fathom Doug Wilson being a social liberal on much of anything, 
frankly.  I would imagine that the strong and educated woman of the 1800s 
who wasn't, as would be his ideal, at home bravely schooling her children 
was likely found on the front lines of  temperance, abolition, and urban 
ministry to people overthrown by an industrial revolution gone mad.  Given 
the Christ Church embrace of beer and wine, its derision of "godless" 
abolitionists and its seeming indifference to community ministry, I can't 
imagine how that model of "strong, educated 1800s woman" was at all to his 
liking.

No, most Christ Church women don't feel oppressed by their men or their 
church.  Why would they?  Patriarchy needn't announce itself with force to 
achieve its goals, and attempts to claim that women in the Kirk have access 
to all they need, through church and family, to be the best they can be is 
ludicrous to me, given the inability of a  woman to attend HOHs meetings 
with her husband, sit on the Logos school board, become an elder, or, for 
that matter, study to become a fighter pilot.  Acceptance of sexism in the 
church and sincerity in defending it don't make it so.

keely

keely




From: "Michael" <metzler at moscow.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash: Roles & Submission
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 08:50:15 -0700

I'd prefer Heather to come back and continue this on her own, and I'm
nervous saying anything about this topic now since I don't have the time to
ride a long discussion about it; but I would agree with Heather here.
However, there was something profound that happened to the legitimacy of
"roles" 2000 years ago when a wild Jew started traveling the Roman Empire
saying that there is no longer a distinction between slave/free,
greek/barbarian, woman/man.  In defense of traditional values, Christians
often loose sight of the bigger picture and how unique the origination of
their 'religion' really was. And appeal to the ontological status of the
nature of man and woman is limited for the conservative since a Pauline
world is a new world and one in constant change and recreation.  But I do
think that in some respects, Doug Wilson can be seen as a friend to the
social liberal given what tradition and larger community he is speaking
from. Wilson has fought for a rediscovery of that strong and educated
American woman of the 1800s, and he has done this in the midst of a reaction
to extreme feminism in Christian circles (what we might call the prairie
muffin problem).



"Roles" between men and women cannot be considered independently of other
social "roles" however, and we were free to abandon these other roles:
royalty/peasant, caste placement, racism/slavery etc. So I think this is a
tricky topic.  This also doesn't get us very far in talking about
"submission."  Having different roles does not logically require submission.




Michael





Mr. London,



I think our disagreement is about the fundamental nature of reality which
would make any post from me hopelessly inadequate. Personally, because I
embrace the world the Apostle Paul describes, I think my husband and I
relate to each other in such a way that maximizes our potential. G.K.

Chesterton sums up my thoughts better than I can in his poem "Comparisons"



If I set the sun beside the moon,

And if I set the land beside the sea,

And if I set the town beside the country, And if I set the man beside the
woman, I suppose some fool would talk about one being better



Different roles, different strengths, does not mean different values. While
I can't make any promises, if any one feels so inclined I'd be happy to try
and answer questions off list.



Cheers, hasta la pasta, peace out, etc.



Heather (now unsubscribing) Wilson







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