[Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash: Roles & Submission

[J Ford]

Michael;

I am going to disagree with you here...if a woman in the CC or any other 
man-dominated clan wants to be married to a man from that clan or church, 
she has to be willing to submit to his will.  They are taught from early on 
that the man is the "human, household representative" of God and as such, is 
the last word in any decisions the family faces.

Now, that does not go clear to the bone - if the women want to read 
something, as long as it does not offend the sensibilities of the man in the 
family (i.e. would be considered as a "threat" to the man's way of running 
things or influences the woman to the point of her trying to usurp the man's 
position in the family) than she can and does read it.  However, if a women 
in this kind of situation wishes to make decisions that do affect or could 
seemingly diminish the man's stand or position in the family (even if that 
is just in appearance to do so,) she is not allowed to make those decisions. 
  He is the last word and either she goes along with it, or is removed.  
Additionally, if the woman does not fit the man's definition of what a 
woman/wife/mother should be like or is somehow "damaged goods" and would not 
"look good" for the man, she is out.  The best example of that is the 
Dickison case, but others do exist in your church.

When one member of the church was "caught" cheating on his wife (again) 
while he was removed from attending services for three weeks, SHE (and the 
rest of the women in the church) was told (by Dougie) that it is 
understandable why a man would do such a thing if the wife is not 
"performing her wifely duties."  He admonished the women of the church to 
make sure they were doing what they should to "please her man" so that he 
would not feel the need to look for it outside the marriage.  That speech 
was given during one of Dougie's marriage series a few years back.  The man 
was eventually welcomed back and ended up divorcing the wife after a bit 
more time.  From what I have seen, he is perfectly happy with the new person 
in his life and his former wife/children are no longer around.  THAT is what 
happens in a male-dominated clan.  The church is currently going through a 
similar (NOT in all aspects) incident even now.

Dougie's "search" for the strong and educated women of the 1800's (why THAT 
period of time?) consists of his wanting women to be educated so she can 
home-school her children without it being a chore or a detriment to the 
children's education.  But, the minute she shows a back-bone and wants 
things run more along the lines SHE feels is correct or desirable, she is 
out.  I don't view that as Dougie being a friend to anyone except his male 
cohorts that want to be the "be-all, end-all" of the family.

The different roles between the men and women of the CC-like clans may not 
require an act of submission, but in reality, it is practiced.

J  :]




>From: "Michael" <metzler at moscow.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash: Roles & Submission
>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 08:50:15 -0700
>
>I'd prefer Heather to come back and continue this on her own, and I'm
>nervous saying anything about this topic now since I don't have the time to
>ride a long discussion about it; but I would agree with Heather here.
>However, there was something profound that happened to the legitimacy of
>"roles" 2000 years ago when a wild Jew started traveling the Roman Empire
>saying that there is no longer a distinction between slave/free,
>greek/barbarian, woman/man.  In defense of traditional values, Christians
>often loose sight of the bigger picture and how unique the origination of
>their 'religion' really was. And appeal to the ontological status of the
>nature of man and woman is limited for the conservative since a Pauline
>world is a new world and one in constant change and recreation.  But I do
>think that in some respects, Doug Wilson can be seen as a friend to the
>social liberal given what tradition and larger community he is speaking
>from. Wilson has fought for a rediscovery of that strong and educated
>American woman of the 1800s, and he has done this in the midst of a 
>reaction
>to extreme feminism in Christian circles (what we might call the prairie
>muffin problem).
>
>
>
>"Roles" between men and women cannot be considered independently of other
>social "roles" however, and we were free to abandon these other roles:
>royalty/peasant, caste placement, racism/slavery etc. So I think this is a
>tricky topic.  This also doesn't get us very far in talking about
>"submission."  Having different roles does not logically require 
>submission.
>
>
>
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>Mr. London,
>
>
>
>I think our disagreement is about the fundamental nature of reality which
>would make any post from me hopelessly inadequate. Personally, because I
>embrace the world the Apostle Paul describes, I think my husband and I
>relate to each other in such a way that maximizes our potential. G.K.
>
>Chesterton sums up my thoughts better than I can in his poem "Comparisons"
>
>
>
>If I set the sun beside the moon,
>
>And if I set the land beside the sea,
>
>And if I set the town beside the country, And if I set the man beside the
>woman, I suppose some fool would talk about one being better
>
>
>
>Different roles, different strengths, does not mean different values. While
>I can't make any promises, if any one feels so inclined I'd be happy to try
>and answer questions off list.
>
>
>
>Cheers, hasta la pasta, peace out, etc.
>
>
>
>Heather (now unsubscribing) Wilson
>
>
>
>
>


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