[Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash

[Bill London]

H-
    My questions were asked in all seriousness.  Honest.  I am trying to
understand.  You write (below): "The misconceptions I've read on this forum
about Chritst Church woman are often astounding."
    I would hope that you would use this opportunity to explain those
misconceptions.
    Let me start from the core of my concern.  We have a daughter (now 28).
During her school years, I was the stay-at-home parent.  We have a very
strong relationship.  I could never envision limiting her goals or
aspirations in any way, and certainly never suggested that she should find
fulfillment in a marriage where she was submissive to her husband.
    I just don't get it.  Why would you choose such a path for yourself?
Why would you choose that path for your daughters?
    And now to get back to your responses:
    1. " Does that assume husbands never make a mistake?" you say no...but
how could you agree to submit to your husband unless his judgement was
always correct?  You would not be allowed to redirect or change your
husband's decision, right?  (talking about what books you read just doesn't
count...I am referring to much more significant decisions)
    2. "Does that mean you are explicitly telling your daughters that they
are inferior (in skill, talent, judgement, etc)?"  You say no, but I do not
see how the message comes through in any other way.
    I hope you do not leave the V2020 conversation now.
BL



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Linn" <heatherlinn at hotmail.com>
To: <london at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash


> Mr. London,
>
> I had trouble telling whether you were asking real questions but I'll do
my
> best to answer in all seriousness.
>
> " Does that assume husbands never make a mistake?" I feel silly even
> responding to this. No. No. No. I am conviced Russians are a fun summer
> read. Nate prefers Pratchett. He is wrong.
>
> "Does that mean you are explicitly telling your daughters that they are
> inferior (in skill, talent, judgement, etc)?"
> Same as above. No. No. No. Nate and I hope to give our daughters (and son)
> the most thorough education available and opportunties to excell in
> academics, athlectics, design -- wherever they may be gifted. Americans
are
> so bad at heiarchies, they can't help but confuse responsibility for
> ontological or essential superiority. Because we like the Apostle Paul,
> people decide that we're thoughtless doormats.
>
> Of course, if we do everything that I would  like to do for our daughters
> there may be some downsides. It might be tough for them to find husbands
who
> aren't 'inferior' to them. And if they do find men strong enough to make
> them happy, the poor boys will have their hands full.
>
> The misconceptions I've read on this forum about Chritst Church woman are
> often astounding. We're far from a cookie cut batch. When I met my
husband,
> I had just surfed my first pro contest and was on my way to Ireland to
watch
> a girlfriend receive her doctorate. A good friend of mine (who also had
> coffee with Keely) received a double masters from Duke in law and
divinity,
> and when she decided to pass on the country's power firms in order to
settle
> down in Moscow, she didn't think she was taking the 'inferior' path.
>
> Anyway, I'll be signing off from V2020 at the end of the day since I'm too
> busy to keep posting and don't generally find this forum conducive to
> community betterment. I've enjoyed interacting with many of you face to
face
> and I hope to do so more in the future.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Heather
>
> >From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
> >To: "Heather Linn" <heatherlinn at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash
> >Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:40:00 -0700
> >
> >Heather:
> >First, many thanks for posting to V2020 (really).  The Christ Church
women
> >have been often discussed on V2020, and I am glad you are speaking
directly
> >to us now...... which brings me to my second point: I am trying to
> >understand the "wife submits to husband" thing.
> >Can you explain that to me?  Does that assume husbands never make a
> >mistake?
> >Does that mean you are explicitly telling your daughters that they are
> >inferior (in skill, talent, judgement, etc)?
> >BL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Heather Linn" <heatherlinn at hotmail.com>
> >To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:38 PM
> >Subject: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash
> >
> >
> > > First, I'd like to thank Keely for joining us for coffee. I'm glad to
> >hear
> > > that she enjoyed herself
> > > as did we. However, I'd like to point out that there seems to be an
> > > alternative she's missed or at least is unable to consider. Perhaps
not
> >all
> > > information out there in V2020 land and the blog world
> > > concerning our church, our pastor, and our husbands is true. Perhaps
we,
> > > women whom Keely views as "reasonable, intelligent and sincere in
their
> > > faith", have a better grasp on our own situations and lives than those
> >who
> > > don't know us. We aren't merely "willing to endure" our husbands and
our
> > > theology  but rather enjoy (love) them both. Why would "intelligent"
> >women
> > > love living with domineering patriarchal peacocks? Maybe we're not
> >actually
> > > intelligent. Maybe we don't really love them. Or, the option you
haven't
> > > been willing to consider, maybe they aren't domineering at all.
> >Longshot,
> >I
> > > know. But it is possible.
> > >
> > > We don't "grieve, or are at least puzzled by, [your] Biblical
feminism,
> > > outspokenness against Doug
> > > Wilson, and [your] sharp theological disagreements with Christ
Church."
> >I've
> > > been curious how you've drawn your conclusions but unlike what has
been
> > > asserted, we don't all mind when people
> > > disagree. In fact, it can make community life a lot more interesting
and
> > > fun.
> > >
> > > Hope we still seem intelligent when you realize that we are on the
same
> >page
> > > as our husbands. We didn't mary stupid boys out of pity. We like them.
> > > Mine's even funny.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Heather Wilson
> > >
> > >
> > > >keely emerinemix kjajmix1 at msn.com
> > > >Tue Jun 13 13:25:27 PDT 2006
> > > >Previous message: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash
> > >
> > >
> > > >I appreciate Douglas Hunter's wise comments below, as well as Joe's
> >point
> > > >that we consider Doug Wilson separately from those unfortunate enough
> >to
> >be
> > > >shepherded by him.
> > >
> > > >I had coffee yesterday with five warm, intelligent, delightful women
> >from
> > > >Christ Church.  They have every reason to presume that I am as bad
and
> >mean
> > > >as some have depicted me, and yet they've decided to do what mature
> >women
> > > >do -- spend some time with me and find out for themselves.  And I am
> > > >grateful for the invitation extended, the warmth expressed, and the
> >trust
> > > >presumed; I
> > > hope I reciprocated with the same warmth and trust.  I have absolutely
> > > >nothing against them and would welcome a friendship with any of
them --
> >as
> > > >much as I grieve the bad theology they've embraced, or are willing to
> > > >endure,  and the hyper-patriarchal and hierarchical worldview it
> >produces
> > > >that, I'm convinced, is as bad for men as it is for women.
> > >
> > > >But I would imagine they grieve, or are at least puzzled by, my
> >Biblical
> > > >feminism, outspokenness against Doug Wilson, and my sharp theological
> > > >disagreements with Christ Church.  That's fair.  In fact, that's
great.
> >I
> > > >only hope that we can discuss it more.  I have no doubt at all that
it
> > > >would be a loving, reasonable, intelligent and stimulating
discussion,
> > > >because these women, like most of the folks at Christ Church, are
> > > >reasonable, intelligent and sincere in their faith.  For every
unloving
> > > >Kirk man, many of whom we're all acquainted with here, I know there
are
> > > >several more, men and women, who love Christ and are willing to love
me
> >in
> > > >His name.   I feel he same way.
> > >
> > > >That doesn't negate my concern and anger about what I know of
Wilson's
> > > >world and worldview.  In fact, it heightens it.  I love a good roll
in
> >the
> > > >theological hay of debate, but what's of real consequence is that
real
> > > >people -- good people -- get hurt by bad theology and worse conduct.
> > > >Conscience compels me, then, to defend them and to defend the
Gospel --
> >to
> > > >offer, with gentleness and respect, a reason for the hope that lies
> >within
> > > >me; further paraphrasing 1 Peter 3:15, I might add that I hope to
offer
> >a
> > > >reason for the anger and concern that lies within me regarding the
> >Kirk,
> > > >and I hope that I've done it with gentleness and respect to the
sincere
> >and
> > > >offered clear, truth-building rebuke when needed.
> > >
> > > >And so, I'd like to publicly thank my friend Heather Wilson and her
> > > >sister-in-law, Meredith Wilson, for a delightful morning yesterday.
> >(And
> > > >it wasn't just the delicious coffee cake and great coffee, either!)
> > >
> > > >keely
> > >
> > >
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