[Vision2020] Sitler, Wilson, and Pooh Bear
Joe Campbell
joekc at adelphia.net
Thu Jun 8 12:59:17 PDT 2006
Just two things.
First, if NSA is not in violation of zoning laws, then why do they need a conditional use permit? Does Bookpeople have to apply for a conditional use permit? No. Does NSA? Yes. Why? Because they do not belong downtown. That is the decision as far as I see it. But there is a longer history, previous locations and previous violations, leading up to the situation now. Look into it and see for yourself but do not suggest that I am uninformed or mistaken about this matter.
Second, Doug Wilson says one thing about the Sitler saga and others say other things. Read the recent Terry Morin post, for instance. Check out the Pooh Blog. Whom do we believe? I don't know. I think it is worth investigating, though. And if it turns out that some people had certain information and did not notify authorities about it, then, yes, it does matter. If my kid is threatened because someone is afraid to note that members of their church are sinners, then that matters a great deal to the safety and protection of my son. I am not going to take anyone's word on the issue. It needs some more thorough investigation.
Keep spinning this as some kind of political agenda all you want but that is simply not the case. This new twist is something very different. Suggesting otherwise makes it seem like you are the one with the agenda.
--
Joe Campbell
---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
=============
Joe,
First off, let me say that none of your statements or questions, even if answered, would lead to anything that would in anyway prevent this crime from occurring in the future, or to help current victims. That is why I don't believe that this is your concern.
Your questions appear as an attempt to try and make up connections between Christ Church and child molestation that simply are not there for the purposes of character assassinate of Doug Wilson.
Yes, two sexual predators both attended the same church in a small town of 10,000 permanent residents, as you pointed out. They were also both male, between 20-60, White, Christian, high school graduates, heterosexuals and residences of Moscow. Should we just round up and shoot all White, Christian, heterosexual males between 20 and 60? Why not, they are ones that commit 90% of the crime? Don't you see the connection? That is a greater connection then what you are trying to make, Joe.
Should we also harass Sitler's parents, brothers, friends, teachers, cousins, neighbors, and employers too right along with his pastor?
Second, all your facts are wrong. Did you not read any of the information? Doug Wilson made sure it was reported to the police immediately once he found out about the incident and made sure he had ZERO contact with children thereafter. What other action do you think Wilson should have taken?
Should Wilson have gone on Vision 2020 instead minutes later and post, "Hey guess what Joe, this guy you don't know, Steven Sitler, told me he molested some kids, so run and hide your children", then called the Daily News to repeat what he heard?. Was that the rational course of action in your view?
Third, your accusations have gone to far. Accusing Doug Wilson on a public forum of assisting a child molester in the perpetration of his crimes is just beyond that of anything rational, especially when legal documents demonstrate this not to be the case. I would say if you continue, you are asking for legal trouble with public insinuations that a man is running a child molestation ring.
Finally, all your other statements regarding his breaking of the law are also incorrect. Doug Wilson has been allowed to stay where he is, and he has been ruled to be in line with the law in regards to paying his taxes. The fact that the law keeps knocking down these frivolous accusations only supports my theory that your true intentions are harassment of people you don't like. The record is building up. There are only so many times a group of people can keep losing filed complaints before anything they say falls only falls on deaf ears.
I told you this once, if not one hundred times; If you wish to challenge Wilson, do so ethically and on religious and philosophical grounds, not through personal attacks, outlandish accusations, and repeating misinformation.
You are smart guy Joe, well educated and no doubt community oriented. I have more respect for you then most people on Vision 2020, but I hate to see you waste all your energy on a personal vendetta rather then progress for the community.
Best Regards,
_DJA
Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote: Doug,
I'll respond to your post later today. Some of my response is contained below. The attempt to recuse Ament was, for me, the last straw. I no longer trust that CC/NSA have the community's best interests at heart. It seems to me that you are going to do what you want whether the majority of town folk like it or not.
Donovan,
I have been a critic for some time, so I am not jumping on any bandwagon. I notice a demonstrated disregard for the law and community values that has, it seems to me, gone far enough.
Do you realize that it isn't enough for NSA to violate zoning laws and to push a vote on council about a CUP agreement before the newly elected council has had a chance to vote on the matter. No, they must seek to get one member, who openly disagreed with the presence of NSA downtown and was elected because of it, recused from the most recent CUP decision. That was the last straw for me, thank you. Such basic disregard for the democratic process should not be tolerated.
Then I find out that two members of the CC community have been guilty of sexual abuse with a minor. No one knew about this until recently and yet, instead of searching deeper and trying to see if there is some broader connection between these various showings of disrespect for common law, I am told that I should keep quiet and that my genuine concern is nothing more than a political agenda of some unspecified type.
If the safety of our children does not move you to at least question whether or not the actions of CC and NSA are appropriate, then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself why you continue to stand behind this group no matter what.
My conscious is clear. Things have gone too far and something must be done about it. I will no longer tolerate the blatant disregard for the law and the democratic process. I won't want for them to turn on me, or on you, Donovan, before I speak out.
--
Joe Campbell
---- Donovan Arnold wrote:
=============
"Forget about Michael and give me one good reason to think that you,
Doug Wilson, do not believe that you and your congregation are above and
beyond the laws of our community? That is and has always been the real
issue." Joe Campbell
So Joe, your true concern is not the victimized children, but in fact to
get Wilson to answer a pointless open ended question to your satisfaction?
Under what legal obligation is he to answer you?
Why are you using THIS tragic event to try and force someone to do something for you?
Best Regards,
_DJA
Joe Campbell wrote:Would you tell me or anyone else outside of your church if there were any child molesters who are current members of your church? From the facts of this case so far the answer seems to be 'No.' Can't you understand why this might be cause for concern among some of us?
The more you turn this into the story of one poor soul who has lost his way the more it looks to me like you are hiding something.
Again, try to understand it from my perspective. From my perspective Michael is merely providing information that you have failed to make public. I can find room for the possibility that I am wrong in this judgment but your continual public harassment of this young man makes it difficult to do so.
Forget about Michael and give me one good reason to think that you, Doug Wilson, do not believe that you and your congregation are above and beyond the laws of our community? That is and has always been the real issue.
--
Joe Campbell
---- Douglas wrote:
=============
Visionaries,
Michael is grieved and baffled at the consequences of his actions.
Little kids playing with matches in tinder dry forests often feel the
same way, which in no way alters the consequences. Michael needs to
apologize for intruding himself into a situation that was way over his
head, where he didn't have all the facts, and for failing to understand
what a naif he has been. His anonymous friend who had him post this
salacious material has perhaps lost a friend over how the information
was used on the Internet? "Oh, /dear/, what are /those /people /doing
/out there?" It appears that Michael's friend was born yesterday, and
Michael was born the day before that.
Keep it simple, Michael. The request for privacy that you refused to
honor was a reasonable and heart-wrenching requests from someone who has
already been through enough. Read through what you posted below, and
then read through all your cyber self-centeredness of the last week. It
is hard to suck and blow at the same time. The only way out is to drop
it. Stop grieving over not dropping it. You are being pathetic, and you
need to ask for help from somebody.
Douglas Wilson
Michael wrote:
>
> Vision Friends:
>
> Writing is a bit hard on the road with four little kids
> (understatement!); so I don’t hope to accomplish much for now, even
> though it is true that I’m finding my name out in public a bit more
> than I would like. For now I wanted to offer some important
> clarifications to my involvement in this issue.
>
> First, the Sitler issue never has been nor is it now something I have
> wanted to be involved with. Although I have been tempted to cease all
> blogging many times now, for various reasons I continue to plug away
> at trying to analyze, and at times unmask, what I see as some unusual
> corruptions at Christ Church; this has been a difficult process of
> going from a loyal Wilson defender to a public critic, and I still
> feel like I’m in process. My primary concerns have been with respect
> to the ‘serrated edge,’ a developing ‘enemy theology,’ and what I call
> Wilson’s ‘sociology of violence.’ The problem of cult of personalities
> and closed communities is also of interest. The Sitler issue does not
> sit very snuggly in these categories, and I have been—probably to a
> great fault—very apathetic to it. I remain apathetic to it in many
> respects. However, after a long bit of encouraging and arguing from a
> friend of mine, and after getting notice that I had many respectable
> people with the same encouragement, I went ahead and forwarded the
> public announcement. Even after I did, I was asking people I trust if
> they thought it was the right thing to do, and I received no thumbs
> down. I forwarded the public announcement along with trepidation, and
> I actually had little desire to make this some sort of political
> attack against Doug Wilson. I do desire to continue to unmask the
> various levels of corruption at Christ Church, but if you haven’t
> noticed, most nonChristians find much on my Blog a bit boring. I’m not
> into this politics stuff, nor am I interested in bashing Wilson with
> anything I find on the ground. In fact, I have been forced to actively
> defend Wilson and Christ Church on occasion off line because of my
> status of public critic.
>
> What has followed my posting of this announcement has simply grieved
> me. I deplore the undisciplined and ungodly use of this information to
> spew bitterness and fabricate half truths. The person who wrote the
> announcement has condemned the handling of it by some others, to the
> point of possibly loosing a friend over it. And I have been saddened
> to see the way both sides of this ‘dispute’ have handled the topic of
> “victims.� In fact, I almost feel like I’m staring into a wasteland of
> chaos as I watch the posts role in. This is just further illumination
> of what I see as the continuance of a ‘sociology of violence.’ Are all
> the claims made about Wilson just? Of course not. Are all of them
> true? No way. What I feel in my heart seems so simple to me that I
> would not have imagined that anyone would entertain the idea of
> lumping me in with those people who will pick up any stick to do the
> work once the ‘enemy’ is located. In some ways I wish I never posted
> this announcement, thus freeing my name from the train wreck that was
> going to result once this information got out—which was inevitable.
> Perhaps I was unwise in posting this. It would seem so looking at what
> Christ Church has done with my posting of this announcement. Many of
> you not following some aspects of this might not realize the fact that
> Wilson and others at Christ Church have rhetorically associated me
> with the wildest responses to all this and have gotten the suspicion
> off the ground that my posting the announcement makes me just as sick
> as a child molester. I have now been labeled as totally immoral and
> psychologically unstable. This is in fact the primary response of
> Wilson and Christ Church to the revealing of this information: those
> who offered the information are attacked first, other questions are
> partially addressed secondarily.
>
> So this is where I see myself in this issue. My blog was the conduit
> of revealing this information. My name is attached to the origination,
> and that is all. Wilson has therefore made me the whipping boy as this
> issue heats up. This kind of slanderous attack by Wilson is fully in
> line with the purpose of my web site; Wilson’s response to this issue
> is my primary concern: the deceitful rhetoric; the maligning of people
> instead of dealing with the evidence and issues directly; abusing his
> position through intimidation and manipulation, etc. Apparently, many
> do not share this concern as much, but I believe they should; I
> believe that this is really getting more at the heart of the problems
> at Christ Church. Do I think that there was pastoral misconduct in how
> the Sitler case was handled? From everything I can tell so far, it
> would seem so; but I’m reading this off the nature of Wilson’s very
> troubling response to this more so than the actual evidence we yet
> have of what had really transpired. I wish I could just correct the
> announcement and say that it is true that the congregation was
> sufficiently notified, but I still cannot. One of the reasons for this
> is the fact that myself and many other kirkers were indeed not
> successfully notified at all. Does this reveal aspects of the
> corruption at Christ Church? I would think so. But this does not mean
> that there was some kind of big sex scandal to go on the front page of
> the newspaper. I could be wrong; there could be more to this than I
> know. But I currently have little reason to believe this and I have no
> intentions of being a part of the next big politicized attack on Doug
> Wilson or Christ Church. So few find it interesting that Wilson is
> currently attacking the person who posted the information on Sitler
> more so than providing basic information; I think this highlights how
> at odds I just might be with this current ‘controversy’. Some of you
> will thank me for the info and then tip your hat once the Kirk has
> lynched me. A good reason to be careful on all fronts it seems to me.
>
> Finally, I want to also comment on my thoughts about Sitler. I agree
> more with Wilson and Christ Church than others who have so far
> commented to this—although I do not wish to suggest a great coherence
> between this and their prior theonomic stances and attitudes. We are
> all sinners, and it is ultimately not by my choosing that I’m Metzler
> and not Sitler. The entire world is sick and full of perversion. I am
> thankful for the American Legal Tradition and its careful balancing
> between protection from harm and the disciplining of vengeance. The
> law and the courts are not God, nor do they perfectly reflect ultimate
> justice. The way some of the talk has gone about the death penalty and
> disgust reveal hearts that need to know the God who became man and died.
>
> I think I rambled a bit, but if you are still reading: Thanks for
> listening; I hope this at least clarifies my take on all this.
>
> Michael Metzler
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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