[Vision2020] Fwd: No victims??

Sat Jul 15 13:32:28 PDT 2006

I have a bad habit of just responding to the individual and not the entire
list.  Sorry...better late than never though, eh?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Larson Hicks <larsonhicks at gmail.com>
Date: Jul 14, 2006 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] No victims??
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>

Tony,

I'd have to agree that trying to take the scientific aproach here is silly.
Your clinical explaination of how certain homosexual activities may raise
the incidence of transmission from an infected person (all else being equal)
may be valid, however, I can't imagine that this is why you believe that it
is wrong.

The issue is certainly about safety, but not from AIDS - from an angry God.
The Bible condemns homosexual acts, as it does quite a few other
activities.  Your basis for rejecting it is not based on statistics, is it?
To pretend that this isn't a debate with faith at the center of it is
disingenuous.

The Bible teaches that all sins have consequences and it doesn't take a
scholar to figure out which ones have greater consequences(or which ones
affect more people).  I think the examples from creation make quite a bit of
sense.  However much you try to talk yourself into it, everyone knows that
one man was intended for one woman (but please do try to talk us into it - I
love hearing the arguments for why God, or evolution, intended us all to
fornicate with as many people as we possibly can - they're usually
water-tight!).  When you deviate from this, things get messy and sinful.
"Unprotected" sex with only your spouse is the only kind of sex that truly
is protected, biblically.  A condom cannot protect people from being sinned
against, hurt, infected with VD, confused, abused, and so on.  But I don't
need to lecture on why this is so, it's self-evident.

Tony, you should know that these kinds of arguments are rarely fruitful.
After all, it's the fool who says in their heart that there is no God and
this is the same fool that the Proverbs say this of: "If a wise man has an
argument with a fool, the fool rages and laughs, and there is no quiet" -
Proverbs 29:9

Cheers,
Larson

On 7/14/06, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Tony,
>
> No reason to be raising a tissy. I did not put any words in your mouth, I
> quoted you exactly, word for word, with no intent to take anything you said
> out of context; I took your comments at face value. If I misquoted you,
> please show me where I did so and I will correct my error.
>
> It appears you have no argument, neither scientific, logical, or moral for
> your claims; just a bigoted unhealthy rant.
>
> You wrote, "I stated why the practice of anal "sex" was unwise in the age
> of AIDS.  I was clinical and specific."
>
> Tony, are you unaware that anal sex does not cause AIDS? Do you understand
> that concept? What causes AIDS is unprotected sex with an infected partner.
> A couple, gay or straight, can have anal sex everyday, and if neither one
> has AIDS, they will not contract it through that activity. Likewise, a
> couple, gay or straight, that only has heterosexual intercourse, can
> contract it.
>
> Your argument demonstrates your extreme ignorance and prejudice in how
> AIDS and HIV is contracted.
>
>  "Now think carefully Don, what part of that post do you take issue with
> and why?"
>
> I take issue with you presenting false and bigoted medical information as
> fact. That is dangerous. Now I ask you, why so much hostility against
> homosexuals?
>
> Best,
>
> _DJA
>
> *Tony Simpson < tonytime at clearwire.net>* wrote:
>
> Donovan,
>
> You insist upon demanding that I defend a position that I never took.  Do
> you just dig putting words in other's mouths, or were you not paying
> attention?  I stated why the practice of anal "sex" was unwise in the age of
> AIDS.  I was clinical and specific.  At no time did I draw the conclusion
> that you attribute to me.  Now think carefully Don, what part of that post
> do you take issue with and why?
>
> Patiently awaiting a reasonable response,  --Tony      Original Message
> -----
>
>  *From:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Tony Simpson <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent: * Friday, July 14, 2006 6:39 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] No victims??
>
> Tony,
>
> I know you won't answer this question because you ignored my other four,
> but here it goes anyway.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Apparently 58 PERCENT of AIDS infections result from the behavior of
> homosexual males, with only 11 percent of cases transmitted heterosexually."
>
> So if you conclude that homosexual behavior is wrong because 58% of
> contracted cases of AIDS in the United States are because of homosexual
> behavior; then do you also conclude  that heterosexuality in China, India
> and Africa is wrong because 95% of cases there are created through sexual
> behavior of heterosexuals?
>
> Best,
>
> _DJA
>
>
>
> *Tony Simpson < tonytime at clearwire.net>* wrote:
>
> Donovan,
>
> You ask if my complaint about risky sexual behavior in an age of AIDS
> should not be about homosexual behavior, but about anal intercourse among
> the population at large.
>
> Yes, Don, it should.  And it is.
>
>  However, you may choose to ponder the stats provided by ALERT on the link
> posted by Wayne yesterday.  Apparently 58 PERCENT of AIDS infections result
> from the behavior of homosexual males, with only 11 percent of cases
> transmitted heterosexually.
>
> At some point Don, you might wish to dispense with all the PC bullshit
> before we loose another generation to this plague.
>
> PC dogma be damned, --Tony
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>  *From:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Tony Simpson <tonytime at clearwire.net> ; Scott Dredge<sdredge at yahoo.com>
>  *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2006 1:53 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] No victims??
>
> Tony,
>
> I wish to challenge some of your (mis)conceptions of homosexuals here;
>
> You state, "Have you not heard of the AIDS epidemic?"
>
> 1) How are two HIV- monogamously coupled homosexuals more at risk to
> contract AIDS than a heterosexually married couple?
>
> "Surely you are aware of the inherent risks of anal "sex"?"
>
> 2) Heterosexual couples also practice anal intercourse; while not all
> homosexuals couples do. Shouldn't your complaint be about the practice of
> anal intercourse, not the gender or sexual orientation of the individuals
> practicing it?
>
> 3) If unmarried gay men are the principle cause of the spread of AIDS and
> HIV in our country, should we not encourage gays to be monogamously coupled,
> shouldn't you be for gay marriage, not against it?
>
> "Choosing not to enable the self destructive"
>
> 4) So you are against the legalization of all things that could be
> destructive or dangerous including, fast food, non-helmet use, abolishing
> alcohol, gambling, tobacco, pornography, and physical contact sports?
>
> Best,
>
> _DJA
>
> *Tony Simpson < tonytime at clearwire.net>* wrote:
>
> Scott,
>
> Were you serious when you said that the practice of homosexuality does not
> result in anyone being victimized?  Have you not heard of the AIDS
> epidemic?  Surely you are aware of the inherent risks of anal "sex"?
>
> The human body was obviously NOT DESIGNED to be employed in this manner.
> Therefore, when one engages in such activities, one deliberately risks his
> life and the life of his "partner".  If our society genuinely cared for the
> welfare of homosexuals, it would strongly advise them to discontinue such
> unnatural and unhealthy behaviors, just as it advises against the sharing of
> needles.
>
> Choosing not to enable the self destructive,    --Tony
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>  *From:* Scott Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com>
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
>  *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:30 AM
>  *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] The Great Debate
>
>  rvcowboy,
>
> There are clearly victims involved in situations of adultery, rape,
> cheating, and stealing.  Not so with homosexuality.  Are you really unable
> to see the difference between consenual adult activity and scenarios of
> someone viciously hurting someone else?
>
> -Scott
>
>
> "rvrcowboy" < rvrcowboy at clearwire.net> wrote:
> -----------------------------------------------
> -- SNIP --
> I agree with you that Jesus' overwhelming
> message is that we love one another.  I just don't believe that loving one
> another justifies our
> sins.  Please understand, I don't rate the sin of homosexuality any
> differently than adultrey,
> rape, cheating, stealing, or any other sin.
>
>
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