[Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt

rvrcowboy rvrcowboy at clearwire.net
Thu Jul 6 21:24:55 PDT 2006


Wayne,

Thanks for the answer.  You are obviously much more eloquent than I with
words.  Perhaps that makes it difficult for us to understand each other as
well as we should.

I do understand your message concerning classes of objects but still believe
many here in the forum detest anything resembling Christianity.  Perhaps
this will become more evident when I finally get my answer to Chas ready.

In the mean time... Ciao

Dick...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt


> Dick,
>
> You write:
>
> "My amusement merely stemmed from all the latitude many give to the Wicca
> while slamming Christianity and those who believe in it, all in the name
of
> diversity and acceptance of personal choice."
>
> I think I understand your point.  However, while the quoted sentence above
> is syntactically well-formed, lacks tangible meaning.  It does so because
> there is no single real entity referred to by the word "Christianity."
The
> different beliefs of different Christian sects are diverse and
inconsistent
> with each other.  The abstract word "Christianity" does not refer to any
> real object but to a class of objects family having what Wittgenstein
called
> "family resemblances."  Each member of the class has some of these
> properties but not all.
>
> I make this point to show what is a common
epistemological/logical/category
> mistake fallacy:  confusing reality with classes of objects created by
using
> language, sometimes very imprecisely and vaguely.
>
> The problem that many people in Latah county is not with the words of
Christ
> but how his words are twisted and used in a manner inconsistent with his
> general message.  There have been many threads on this forum discussing
> that.
>
> My statement:
>
> "I reject all supernatural assertions as being inherently unverifiable,
thus
> doubtful.  Almost all are without clear, tangible
> meaning also.  Those that have tangible meaning are easily disconfirmable
or
> have minuscule probability."
>
> refers to the parts all the current world religions which posit and make
> assertions about supernatural beings, forces, etc.
>
> Thank you for showing the courage and taking the time to clarify your
> original post.  I hope that you have understood what I have said above
about
> the difference between words and the objects they refer or allege to refer
> to.
>
>
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> deco at moscow.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
> To: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
>
>
> > Wayne,
> >
> > I am sorry, I know I didn't make myself clear in my previous post.  Just
> > for
> > the record, I know the thread and I agree wholeheartedly that Patrick
> > Stewart's name should be posted on the Nevada Veteran's Memorial Wall.
I
> > don't give a rip what his religion is, or was, he served our country
> > honorably and it doesn't matter if he was a Wiccan, Atheist, Mormon,
> > Christian or a Martian.  He should be given the honor he earned.  I
assume
> > we agree to this point.
> >
> > I was merely amused by all the apparent kissing up to the Wicca Religion
> > and
> > the sudden infatuation with it by so many here on the venom.
Personally,
> > I
> > believe it is quite paganistic and not for me.  That being said, I don't
> > care if others choose it as their own faith.
> >
> > My amusement merely stemmed from all the latitude many give to the Wicca
> > while slamming Christianity and those who believe in it, all in the name
> > of
> > diversity and acceptance of personal choice.  I didn't mean it as an
> > accusation, only as an observation that I found personally amusing.
> >
> > Sorry I wasn't more clear.
> >
> > Dick S.
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> > To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:04 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >
> >
> >> Dick,
> >>
> >> You desperately need the material at
> >> http://www.edhelper.com/ReadingComprehension.htm
> >>
> >>
> >> There is nothing in my post than indicates that I embrace Wicca as a
true
> >> belief.  I reject all supernatural assertions as being inherently
> >> unverifiable, thus doubtful.  Almost all are without clear, tangible
> > meaning
> >> also.  Those that have tangible meaning are easily disconfirmable or
have
> >> minuscule probability.
> >>
> >> I know it is very hard for you, but when you participate in this forum,
> >> please do the other posters the courtesy of at least reading and
> >> understanding their posts before making an ass of yourself.
> >>
> >>
> >> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> >> deco at moscow.com
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
> >> To: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:39 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >>
> >>
> >> > It is so amusing to see how so many of the libs here in the venom are
> >> > embracing Wicca while admitting they know little, or nothing, about
it.
> >> > It
> >> > is always the same with you people:  Any President but Bush and any
> >> > religion
> >> > but Christianity.
> >> >
> >> > You are so very translucent.
> >> >
> >> > Dick S.
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> >> > To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:40 AM
> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Debi writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> "Wicca does not have a Central Authority, it does not have Pastors,
> >> >> Preachers, or Popes.  It doesn't seek converts, doesn't proselytize,
> >> > doesn't
> >> >> reject other religions as non-valid."
> >> >>
> >> >> Holy Jesus!  Are you daring to say that a person can be religious,
> >> >> spiritual, kind, loving, concerned about humankind/animalkind etc
> > without
> >> > an
> >> >> organized church to provide detailed instruction and to suck away
> >> >> their
> >> >> money?
> >> >>
> >> >> I am sorry but your egregiously perverted view has now placed you
> >> >> among
> >> >> other major perverts of the past:  Buddha, Confucius, Christ, Plato,
> >> >> Aristotle, Bertrand Russell, Jean Paul Sartre, etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> Why, if what you say has any truth at all, then a whole lot of
> >> > egomaniacal,
> >> >> megalomaniacal, and/or just uncritically dumb parasites would be
> >> >> instantly
> >> >> unemployed.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> >> >> deco at moscow.com
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> >> From: <debismith at moscow.com>
> >> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 9:17 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Thanks for posting this, Tom. Also to all of you who have taken
> > enough
> >> >> > interest in Wicca to do
> >> >> > a bit of research.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > While approximately 1,900 in the military are *out of the broom
> >> >> > closet*, many more do not identify themselves as Wiccan simply to
> >> > protect
> >> >> > themselves.Unless
> >> >> > a base has a fairly large contingent of Wiccans (as did Fort
Hood),
> > it
> >> > can
> >> >> > be dangerous to let
> >> >> > others know  this religion is the one practiced.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Wicca does not have a Central Authority, it does not have Pastors,
> >> >> > Preachers, or Popes.  It
> >> >> > doesn't seek converts, doesn't proseletize, doesn't reject other
> >> > religions
> >> >> > as nonvalid. What
> >> >> > it has is a belief that Diety is imminent, not transcendent, and a
> >> >> > focus
> >> >> > on care for the Earth
> >> >> > and all that inhabits Her. It has one basic tenet: And It Harm
None.
> >> > This
> >> >> > means anything one
> >> >> > puts out into the Universe will return thrice-fold. If it is good
> >> >> > deeds,
> >> >> > there is a return. If, as in my
> >> >> > case, it is snarky e-mails to those I feel it necessary to
confront,
> > I
> >> > get
> >> >> > three equally snotty e-
> >> >> > mails back. I'm sometimes willing to take the *karmic hit* and
just
> >> >> > push
> >> >> > *send*, knowing full
> >> >> > well Dick, Lame-o Doug, Donovan, or one of the over-aged juvenile
> >> > Kirkers
> >> >> > will attempt to insult
> >> >> > me or even start cyber-stalking again.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I am open about my spiritual beliefs. I am open about my political
> >> > agenda.
> >> >> > I am open about
> >> >> > just about everything, because when one attempts secrecy it leaves
> > one
> >> >> > open to blackmail.
> >> >> > One of the v2020 posters, in the not so distant past, attempted to
> >> >> > *out*
> >> >> > me (I was already out,
> >> >> > so BFD), attempted to *report* me to a higher authority (there
isn't
> >> > one,
> >> >> > so he just annoyed
> >> >> > people who didn't care), and attempted to *shame* me for my
> > out-spoken
> >> >> > behavior (I save
> >> >> > feeling ashamed for when I have inadvertantly caused someone
> > pain--I'm
> >> > not
> >> >> > ever ashamed of
> >> >> > calling it like I see it).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It breaks my heart when I hear that others who share my religious
> >> > beliefs
> >> >> > are disrespected in
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > way Patrick Stewart and his family have been disrespected. While I
> > may
> >> > not
> >> >> > agree with the
> >> >> > religious perspectives of some others, their right to belief is
> >> >> > never
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > question. Somehow,
> >> >> > Wicca is different than all other faiths?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It is particularly poignant that Wiccan  beliefs are likely the
most
> >> >> > inoffensive of just about any
> >> >> > religion, yet, through misunderstanding and prejudice, many people
> >> >> > still
> >> >> > think Wicca is devil
> >> >> > worship or casting evil spells. These ideas don't have any
> > application
> >> > to
> >> >> > Wicca. We don't even
> >> >> > believe in *the Devil*, and (remember Harm None?) just don't do
> >> >> > imprecatory prayers or evil
> >> >> > spells.  We spend our time recycling, growing organic food, taking
> > care
> >> > of
> >> >> > others, sharing what
> >> >> > we have with those who have less, volunteering in our community,
> > being
> >> >> > involved in politics,
> >> >> > and paying attention to the changing seasons (both real and
> >> >> > metaphorically).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I am hopeful that the VA will get some sense, stop listening to
> >> >> > those
> >> > who
> >> >> > act out of prejudice
> >> >> > rather than information, and allow Roberta Stewart to honor her
> > husband
> >> >> > with the symbol of his
> >> >> > faith. Blessed Be, Roberta.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Debi Robinson-Smith
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Never retract, never explain, never apologize, just get the job
> >> >> > done
> >> > and
> >> >> > let them howl."
> >> >> > -------Iron Jawed Angels
> >> >> > (Thanks to Lois Blackburn, a true Iron Jawed Angel!)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From:           "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> >> >> > To:             "Joan Opyr" <joanopyr at moscow.com>,
> >> >> >       "'Moscow Vision 2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >> > Date sent:      Mon, 3 Jul 2006 16:37:17 -0700
> >> >> > Copies to:
> >> >> > Subject:        [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >> >> >
> >> >> > [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ]
> >> >> >
> >> >> > An editorial from the July 10, 2006 edition of the Army Times -
> >> >> >
> >> >> > For you Wiccans out there.  You know who you are.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A New Witch Hunt
> >> >> > Search for recognition falls victim to misconceptions about Wicca
> >> >> >
> >> >> > By Charles C. Haynes
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The current flap involving Wiccans in the military is a conflict
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > should
> >> >> > never have happened. But years of foot-dragging by the Department
of
> >> >> > Veterans Affairs have turned an easy case into a major controversy
> >> >> > complete
> >> >> > with charges of discrimination and threats of lawsuits.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > All VA needs to do is announce that the pentacle - a five-pointed
> > star
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > symbolizes the Wiccan faith - has been added to the list of 38
> > "emblems
> >> > of
> >> >> > belief" approved for placement on government headstones and
> > memorials.
> >> > No
> >> >> > big deal, end of story.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Instead, VA keeps saying that it is "reviewing the process" - and
> > will
> >> >> > make
> >> >> > a decision at some indeterminate time in the future.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Roberta Stewart has been hearing this bureaucratic mumbo jumbo for
> > the
> >> >> > past
> >> >> > eight months. She just wants to honor her husband, Patrick, a
> >> >> > soldier
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > Nevada National Guard killed in combat last September in
> >> >> > Afghanistan.
> >> > Sgt.
> >> >> > Stewart, who was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star and Purple
> > Heart,
> >> >> > among other honors, was a Wiccan.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > But Stewart's request to have a pentacle engraved on her husband's
> >> >> > memorial
> >> >> > plaque has been repeatedly denied pending review of the VA policy.
> > His
> >> >> > space
> >> >> > on the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial wall remains blank.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Eventually, VA will have no choice but to allow the pentacle.
Nevada
> >> >> > politicians from both parties, as well as advocacy groups from the
> > left
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > right, are demanding the change.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then there is the small matter of the First Amendment: It's
clearly
> >> >> > unconstitutional for the government to deny the Wiccan symbol
while
> >> >> > permitting symbols of many other religions.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If approval of the pentacle is inevitable, why is VA taking so
long
> > to
> >> >> > make
> >> >> > a decision?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > For Roberta Stewart, it has been a long and frustrating eight
> >> >> > months.
> >> > But
> >> >> > other Wiccans have been pushing for VA recognition of the pentacle
> > for
> >> >> > more
> >> >> > than nine years. (According to the Defense Department, some 1,900
> >> >> > active-duty service members identify themselves as Wiccans.)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > At first blush, the years of VA stonewalling doesn't make sense. A
> >> > glance
> >> >> > at
> >> >> > the 38 approved emblems suggests that any religion can make the
> >> >> > list.
> >> >> > In
> >> >> > addition to all of the world's major faiths, a number of obscure
> > sects
> >> > are
> >> >> > represented, such as Eckankar, a New Age group that espouses
> >> >> > out-of-body
> >> >> > travel. Atheists have a symbol, too. If VA is applying some kind
of
> >> >> > religious test to keep out the Wiccans, it's hard to fathom what
it
> >> > might
> >> >> > be.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Before last fall, VA blamed the rules. Applicants had to provide
> >> >> > documentation from a central authority certifying a symbol as
> >> >> > representative
> >> >> > of that religion. Because Wiccans have no recognized head or
> > hierarchy,
> >> >> > their applications were rejected. Rules are rules.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bipartisan outrage over Sgt. Stewart's case inspired a new set of
> >> >> > rules.
> >> >> > Now, applicants are required to provide historic background and
> >> >> > documentation of use to get a symbol approved. Roberta Stewart has
> >> > filled
> >> >> > out all of the forms. But she's still waiting.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So what's the problem? VA isn't talking. But the delay may have to
> >> >> > do
> >> > with
> >> >> > the fact that Roberta Stewart went public. Putting atheists on the
> > list
> >> >> > when
> >> >> > no one is paying attention is one thing, but announcing
recognition
> > of
> >> > the
> >> >> > Wiccan pentacle in the glare of the media spotlight is another.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Few people have even heard of Eckankar, but almost everyone has an
> >> > opinion
> >> >> > about Wiccans. Unfortunately, most of what people think they know
> > about
> >> >> > Wicca is false. Wicca is a nature-based religion centered on a
> >> >> > belief
> >> > that
> >> >> > the divine permeates all life. Wiccans have nothing to do with
black
> >> > magic
> >> >> > or satanic worship, but try explaining that to a misinformed
public.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > VA is probably remembering the last time Wiccans in the military
> >> >> > made
> >> >> > headlines. About six years ago, news reports of Wiccan ceremonies
at
> >> > Fort
> >> >> > Hood, Texas, and other bases provoked some conservative Christian
> >> >> > groups
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > call on Christians not to enlist or re-enlist in the Army.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Under the First Amendment, the Army had no choice then, just as VA
> > has
> >> > no
> >> >> > choice now, but to accommodate Wiccans in the same way it
> > accommodates
> >> >> > other
> >> >> > religious groups. But any "acceptance" of witches - who have long
> > been
> >> >> > demonized in Christian history - is certain to stir up trouble for
> > the
> >> >> > military.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It's also possible that VA lawyers are beginning to realize that
any
> >> >> > guidelines for government-sanctioned "emblems of belief," however
> >> >> > carefully
> >> >> > crafted, are unworkable. In a nation where people are free to
choose
> > in
> >> >> > matters of faith, the government should stop trying to figure out
> > which
> >> >> > symbols are "acceptable" and instead allow each family to choose
> >> > whatever
> >> >> > symbol best represents their convictions.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > In other words, cut through all of the bureaucratic red tape and
> >> > jettison
> >> >> > the "emblems of belief" list entirely.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Meanwhile, however, VA should act immediately to honor Roberta
> >> >> > Stewart's
> >> >> > request and fill in the blank space reserved for Sgt. Stewart.
After
> >> > all,
> >> >> > if
> >> >> > we can't live up to religious freedom at home, we have no business
> >> > asking
> >> >> > soldiers to die for religious freedom abroad.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Tom Hansen
> >> >> > Moscow, Idaho
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but
the
> >> >> > tranquil
> >> >> > and steady dedication of a lifetime."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > =====================================================
> >> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > ====================================================
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ------- End of forwarded message -------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ------- End of forwarded message -------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > =====================================================
> >> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > ====================================================
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> =====================================================
> >> >>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >>                http://www.fsr.net
> >> >>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> ====================================================
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > =====================================================
> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > ====================================================
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> =====================================================
> >>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>                http://www.fsr.net
> >>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> ====================================================
> >>
> >
> > =====================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > ====================================================
> >
> >
>
> =====================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>



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