[Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
Art Deco
deco at moscow.com
Thu Jul 6 16:19:00 PDT 2006
Dick,
You write:
"My amusement merely stemmed from all the latitude many give to the Wicca
while slamming Christianity and those who believe in it, all in the name of
diversity and acceptance of personal choice."
I think I understand your point. However, while the quoted sentence above
is syntactically well-formed, lacks tangible meaning. It does so because
there is no single real entity referred to by the word "Christianity." The
different beliefs of different Christian sects are diverse and inconsistent
with each other. The abstract word "Christianity" does not refer to any
real object but to a class of objects family having what Wittgenstein called
"family resemblances." Each member of the class has some of these
properties but not all.
I make this point to show what is a common epistemological/logical/category
mistake fallacy: confusing reality with classes of objects created by using
language, sometimes very imprecisely and vaguely.
The problem that many people in Latah county is not with the words of Christ
but how his words are twisted and used in a manner inconsistent with his
general message. There have been many threads on this forum discussing
that.
My statement:
"I reject all supernatural assertions as being inherently unverifiable, thus
doubtful. Almost all are without clear, tangible
meaning also. Those that have tangible meaning are easily disconfirmable or
have minuscule probability."
refers to the parts all the current world religions which posit and make
assertions about supernatural beings, forces, etc.
Thank you for showing the courage and taking the time to clarify your
original post. I hope that you have understood what I have said above about
the difference between words and the objects they refer or allege to refer
to.
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
To: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> Wayne,
>
> I am sorry, I know I didn't make myself clear in my previous post. Just
> for
> the record, I know the thread and I agree wholeheartedly that Patrick
> Stewart's name should be posted on the Nevada Veteran's Memorial Wall. I
> don't give a rip what his religion is, or was, he served our country
> honorably and it doesn't matter if he was a Wiccan, Atheist, Mormon,
> Christian or a Martian. He should be given the honor he earned. I assume
> we agree to this point.
>
> I was merely amused by all the apparent kissing up to the Wicca Religion
> and
> the sudden infatuation with it by so many here on the venom. Personally,
> I
> believe it is quite paganistic and not for me. That being said, I don't
> care if others choose it as their own faith.
>
> My amusement merely stemmed from all the latitude many give to the Wicca
> while slamming Christianity and those who believe in it, all in the name
> of
> diversity and acceptance of personal choice. I didn't mean it as an
> accusation, only as an observation that I found personally amusing.
>
> Sorry I wasn't more clear.
>
> Dick S.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
>
>
>> Dick,
>>
>> You desperately need the material at
>> http://www.edhelper.com/ReadingComprehension.htm
>>
>>
>> There is nothing in my post than indicates that I embrace Wicca as a true
>> belief. I reject all supernatural assertions as being inherently
>> unverifiable, thus doubtful. Almost all are without clear, tangible
> meaning
>> also. Those that have tangible meaning are easily disconfirmable or have
>> minuscule probability.
>>
>> I know it is very hard for you, but when you participate in this forum,
>> please do the other posters the courtesy of at least reading and
>> understanding their posts before making an ass of yourself.
>>
>>
>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> deco at moscow.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
>> To: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:39 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
>>
>>
>> > It is so amusing to see how so many of the libs here in the venom are
>> > embracing Wicca while admitting they know little, or nothing, about it.
>> > It
>> > is always the same with you people: Any President but Bush and any
>> > religion
>> > but Christianity.
>> >
>> > You are so very translucent.
>> >
>> > Dick S.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>> > To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:40 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
>> >
>> >
>> >> Debi writes:
>> >>
>> >> "Wicca does not have a Central Authority, it does not have Pastors,
>> >> Preachers, or Popes. It doesn't seek converts, doesn't proselytize,
>> > doesn't
>> >> reject other religions as non-valid."
>> >>
>> >> Holy Jesus! Are you daring to say that a person can be religious,
>> >> spiritual, kind, loving, concerned about humankind/animalkind etc
> without
>> > an
>> >> organized church to provide detailed instruction and to suck away
>> >> their
>> >> money?
>> >>
>> >> I am sorry but your egregiously perverted view has now placed you
>> >> among
>> >> other major perverts of the past: Buddha, Confucius, Christ, Plato,
>> >> Aristotle, Bertrand Russell, Jean Paul Sartre, etc.
>> >>
>> >> Why, if what you say has any truth at all, then a whole lot of
>> > egomaniacal,
>> >> megalomaniacal, and/or just uncritically dumb parasites would be
>> >> instantly
>> >> unemployed.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> >> deco at moscow.com
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: <debismith at moscow.com>
>> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 9:17 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Thanks for posting this, Tom. Also to all of you who have taken
> enough
>> >> > interest in Wicca to do
>> >> > a bit of research.
>> >> >
>> >> > While approximately 1,900 in the military are *out of the broom
>> >> > closet*, many more do not identify themselves as Wiccan simply to
>> > protect
>> >> > themselves.Unless
>> >> > a base has a fairly large contingent of Wiccans (as did Fort Hood),
> it
>> > can
>> >> > be dangerous to let
>> >> > others know this religion is the one practiced.
>> >> >
>> >> > Wicca does not have a Central Authority, it does not have Pastors,
>> >> > Preachers, or Popes. It
>> >> > doesn't seek converts, doesn't proseletize, doesn't reject other
>> > religions
>> >> > as nonvalid. What
>> >> > it has is a belief that Diety is imminent, not transcendent, and a
>> >> > focus
>> >> > on care for the Earth
>> >> > and all that inhabits Her. It has one basic tenet: And It Harm None.
>> > This
>> >> > means anything one
>> >> > puts out into the Universe will return thrice-fold. If it is good
>> >> > deeds,
>> >> > there is a return. If, as in my
>> >> > case, it is snarky e-mails to those I feel it necessary to confront,
> I
>> > get
>> >> > three equally snotty e-
>> >> > mails back. I'm sometimes willing to take the *karmic hit* and just
>> >> > push
>> >> > *send*, knowing full
>> >> > well Dick, Lame-o Doug, Donovan, or one of the over-aged juvenile
>> > Kirkers
>> >> > will attempt to insult
>> >> > me or even start cyber-stalking again.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am open about my spiritual beliefs. I am open about my political
>> > agenda.
>> >> > I am open about
>> >> > just about everything, because when one attempts secrecy it leaves
> one
>> >> > open to blackmail.
>> >> > One of the v2020 posters, in the not so distant past, attempted to
>> >> > *out*
>> >> > me (I was already out,
>> >> > so BFD), attempted to *report* me to a higher authority (there isn't
>> > one,
>> >> > so he just annoyed
>> >> > people who didn't care), and attempted to *shame* me for my
> out-spoken
>> >> > behavior (I save
>> >> > feeling ashamed for when I have inadvertantly caused someone
> pain--I'm
>> > not
>> >> > ever ashamed of
>> >> > calling it like I see it).
>> >> >
>> >> > It breaks my heart when I hear that others who share my religious
>> > beliefs
>> >> > are disrespected in
>> >> > the
>> >> > way Patrick Stewart and his family have been disrespected. While I
> may
>> > not
>> >> > agree with the
>> >> > religious perspectives of some others, their right to belief is
>> >> > never
>> >> > in
>> >> > question. Somehow,
>> >> > Wicca is different than all other faiths?
>> >> >
>> >> > It is particularly poignant that Wiccan beliefs are likely the most
>> >> > inoffensive of just about any
>> >> > religion, yet, through misunderstanding and prejudice, many people
>> >> > still
>> >> > think Wicca is devil
>> >> > worship or casting evil spells. These ideas don't have any
> application
>> > to
>> >> > Wicca. We don't even
>> >> > believe in *the Devil*, and (remember Harm None?) just don't do
>> >> > imprecatory prayers or evil
>> >> > spells. We spend our time recycling, growing organic food, taking
> care
>> > of
>> >> > others, sharing what
>> >> > we have with those who have less, volunteering in our community,
> being
>> >> > involved in politics,
>> >> > and paying attention to the changing seasons (both real and
>> >> > metaphorically).
>> >> >
>> >> > I am hopeful that the VA will get some sense, stop listening to
>> >> > those
>> > who
>> >> > act out of prejudice
>> >> > rather than information, and allow Roberta Stewart to honor her
> husband
>> >> > with the symbol of his
>> >> > faith. Blessed Be, Roberta.
>> >> >
>> >> > Debi Robinson-Smith
>> >> >
>> >> > "Never retract, never explain, never apologize, just get the job
>> >> > done
>> > and
>> >> > let them howl."
>> >> > -------Iron Jawed Angels
>> >> > (Thanks to Lois Blackburn, a true Iron Jawed Angel!)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
>> >> > To: "Joan Opyr" <joanopyr at moscow.com>,
>> >> > "'Moscow Vision 2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> > Date sent: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 16:37:17 -0700
>> >> > Copies to:
>> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
>> >> >
>> >> > [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ]
>> >> >
>> >> > An editorial from the July 10, 2006 edition of the Army Times -
>> >> >
>> >> > For you Wiccans out there. You know who you are.
>> >> >
>> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > A New Witch Hunt
>> >> > Search for recognition falls victim to misconceptions about Wicca
>> >> >
>> >> > By Charles C. Haynes
>> >> >
>> >> > The current flap involving Wiccans in the military is a conflict
>> >> > that
>> >> > should
>> >> > never have happened. But years of foot-dragging by the Department of
>> >> > Veterans Affairs have turned an easy case into a major controversy
>> >> > complete
>> >> > with charges of discrimination and threats of lawsuits.
>> >> >
>> >> > All VA needs to do is announce that the pentacle - a five-pointed
> star
>> >> > that
>> >> > symbolizes the Wiccan faith - has been added to the list of 38
> "emblems
>> > of
>> >> > belief" approved for placement on government headstones and
> memorials.
>> > No
>> >> > big deal, end of story.
>> >> >
>> >> > Instead, VA keeps saying that it is "reviewing the process" - and
> will
>> >> > make
>> >> > a decision at some indeterminate time in the future.
>> >> >
>> >> > Roberta Stewart has been hearing this bureaucratic mumbo jumbo for
> the
>> >> > past
>> >> > eight months. She just wants to honor her husband, Patrick, a
>> >> > soldier
>> >> > in
>> >> > the
>> >> > Nevada National Guard killed in combat last September in
>> >> > Afghanistan.
>> > Sgt.
>> >> > Stewart, who was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star and Purple
> Heart,
>> >> > among other honors, was a Wiccan.
>> >> >
>> >> > But Stewart's request to have a pentacle engraved on her husband's
>> >> > memorial
>> >> > plaque has been repeatedly denied pending review of the VA policy.
> His
>> >> > space
>> >> > on the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial wall remains blank.
>> >> >
>> >> > Eventually, VA will have no choice but to allow the pentacle. Nevada
>> >> > politicians from both parties, as well as advocacy groups from the
> left
>> >> > and
>> >> > right, are demanding the change.
>> >> >
>> >> > Then there is the small matter of the First Amendment: It's clearly
>> >> > unconstitutional for the government to deny the Wiccan symbol while
>> >> > permitting symbols of many other religions.
>> >> >
>> >> > If approval of the pentacle is inevitable, why is VA taking so long
> to
>> >> > make
>> >> > a decision?
>> >> >
>> >> > For Roberta Stewart, it has been a long and frustrating eight
>> >> > months.
>> > But
>> >> > other Wiccans have been pushing for VA recognition of the pentacle
> for
>> >> > more
>> >> > than nine years. (According to the Defense Department, some 1,900
>> >> > active-duty service members identify themselves as Wiccans.)
>> >> >
>> >> > At first blush, the years of VA stonewalling doesn't make sense. A
>> > glance
>> >> > at
>> >> > the 38 approved emblems suggests that any religion can make the
>> >> > list.
>> >> > In
>> >> > addition to all of the world's major faiths, a number of obscure
> sects
>> > are
>> >> > represented, such as Eckankar, a New Age group that espouses
>> >> > out-of-body
>> >> > travel. Atheists have a symbol, too. If VA is applying some kind of
>> >> > religious test to keep out the Wiccans, it's hard to fathom what it
>> > might
>> >> > be.
>> >> >
>> >> > Before last fall, VA blamed the rules. Applicants had to provide
>> >> > documentation from a central authority certifying a symbol as
>> >> > representative
>> >> > of that religion. Because Wiccans have no recognized head or
> hierarchy,
>> >> > their applications were rejected. Rules are rules.
>> >> >
>> >> > Bipartisan outrage over Sgt. Stewart's case inspired a new set of
>> >> > rules.
>> >> > Now, applicants are required to provide historic background and
>> >> > documentation of use to get a symbol approved. Roberta Stewart has
>> > filled
>> >> > out all of the forms. But she's still waiting.
>> >> >
>> >> > So what's the problem? VA isn't talking. But the delay may have to
>> >> > do
>> > with
>> >> > the fact that Roberta Stewart went public. Putting atheists on the
> list
>> >> > when
>> >> > no one is paying attention is one thing, but announcing recognition
> of
>> > the
>> >> > Wiccan pentacle in the glare of the media spotlight is another.
>> >> >
>> >> > Few people have even heard of Eckankar, but almost everyone has an
>> > opinion
>> >> > about Wiccans. Unfortunately, most of what people think they know
> about
>> >> > Wicca is false. Wicca is a nature-based religion centered on a
>> >> > belief
>> > that
>> >> > the divine permeates all life. Wiccans have nothing to do with black
>> > magic
>> >> > or satanic worship, but try explaining that to a misinformed public.
>> >> >
>> >> > VA is probably remembering the last time Wiccans in the military
>> >> > made
>> >> > headlines. About six years ago, news reports of Wiccan ceremonies at
>> > Fort
>> >> > Hood, Texas, and other bases provoked some conservative Christian
>> >> > groups
>> >> > to
>> >> > call on Christians not to enlist or re-enlist in the Army.
>> >> >
>> >> > Under the First Amendment, the Army had no choice then, just as VA
> has
>> > no
>> >> > choice now, but to accommodate Wiccans in the same way it
> accommodates
>> >> > other
>> >> > religious groups. But any "acceptance" of witches - who have long
> been
>> >> > demonized in Christian history - is certain to stir up trouble for
> the
>> >> > military.
>> >> >
>> >> > It's also possible that VA lawyers are beginning to realize that any
>> >> > guidelines for government-sanctioned "emblems of belief," however
>> >> > carefully
>> >> > crafted, are unworkable. In a nation where people are free to choose
> in
>> >> > matters of faith, the government should stop trying to figure out
> which
>> >> > symbols are "acceptable" and instead allow each family to choose
>> > whatever
>> >> > symbol best represents their convictions.
>> >> >
>> >> > In other words, cut through all of the bureaucratic red tape and
>> > jettison
>> >> > the "emblems of belief" list entirely.
>> >> >
>> >> > Meanwhile, however, VA should act immediately to honor Roberta
>> >> > Stewart's
>> >> > request and fill in the blank space reserved for Sgt. Stewart. After
>> > all,
>> >> > if
>> >> > we can't live up to religious freedom at home, we have no business
>> > asking
>> >> > soldiers to die for religious freedom abroad.
>> >> >
>> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tom Hansen
>> >> > Moscow, Idaho
>> >> >
>> >> > "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the
>> >> > tranquil
>> >> > and steady dedication of a lifetime."
>> >> >
>> >> > --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > =====================================================
>> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> > http://www.fsr.net
>> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> > ====================================================
>> >> >
>> >> > ------- End of forwarded message -------
>> >> >
>> >> > ------- End of forwarded message -------
>> >> >
>> >> > =====================================================
>> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> > http://www.fsr.net
>> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> > ====================================================
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> =====================================================
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>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> ====================================================
>> >>
>> >
>> > =====================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > ====================================================
>> >
>> >
>>
>> =====================================================
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>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> ====================================================
>>
>
> =====================================================
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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