[Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt

rvrcowboy rvrcowboy at clearwire.net
Thu Jul 6 09:45:03 PDT 2006


Debbie,

Thanks for the great information.  Just for the record, it isn't a matter of
me not liking Tom, I don't even know him.  I just get a little tired of his
constant boyish, immature need for attention at any cost.  There are times
when I actually enjoy his posts.  He probably feels the same way about me so
this is likely a mutual thing between us.

I know very little about Doug Wilson and his flock.  I have heard rumors
from some members of my own church about them but nothing too bad.  I had
some contact with a church in Las Vegas, years ago when I lived there, that
I suspect was somewhat along the lines of Doug's church.  I opted not to
join but tried not to be too judgmental of their ways.

Aside from the conversations about Doug's church, however, there has been
quite a bit of Christian bashing in this forum.  The post from Chas to which
I am currently working up an answer too is a good example.  There appears to
be an over all contempt for contemporary Christian beliefs here in the
forum.  Perhaps some of these originate from problems with the Christ Church
(is that the proper name?) in Moscow.  Just as I often lump all liberals
into the same basket, perhaps some are lumping all Christians into the same
one also.  It's a bad habit we all exhibit at times, probably for expediency
when we do not have time to do it right.

Having once been a member of the LDS Church myself, I have no beef with
them.  They have some beliefs I don't particularly subscribe too but I know
them to be very good people, very patriotic and proud of their country.  I
still have a lot of good friends who belong to the Mormon Church.

Well, my wife is at work and I have three hungry grandkids to feed so I
better get off here before they start eating my leg.  Again, thanks for the
information.

Dick S.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <debismith at moscow.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt


>
> Thanks, Dick, for the clarification. I, too, think that anyone's religious
orientation is just fine. I
> don't have any problem with Christianity---it gets lots of folks through
tough times, helps them
> access Diety, and gives them a system they can follow to be good with the
world and one
> another.
>
> My gripes are not with Christianity, not even with any branch of it. My
gripes are with the uses
> to which some people put their religion. This is not limited to those of
the Christian persuasion.
> I don't recall anyone on V2020 saying Christianity is bad (but I'm old and
forgetful, so please
> cite those times for me). I think you will find a lot of disagreement with
Doug Wilson's brand of
> Christianity, and a lot of Christians expressing that disagreement on
V2020.
>
>  If Doug Wilson, and his Kirkers, choose a belief system, more power to
them. I'm glad it
> works for them, and fervently hope it helps them in dark times. However,
the means Doug uses
> to control others, the willingness of the Kirker Boys to harm others, the
use of socio-economic
> blackmail evidenced by their Pastor to influence others, and the nasty and
vicious language
> they level at all not within their flock do not recommend Christianity to
those with functioning
> brain cells. This behavior gets a rise out of Christians, Pagans, Jews,
Jainists, Muslims, and
> just about every other faith community. Doug has even insulted the Mormons
(the religious
> group of my extended family) by declaring the Church of JESUS CHRIST
Latter Day Saints, to
> be non-Christian. He even had flyers put on windshields at the Mormon
Church to that effect!
>
> Dougs theology isn't the issue. It's not about religion, it's about Doug,
his toadies, his tactics,
> and his political agenda. He wants a Doug Nation beginning in Moscow. He
would exile my
> gay and lesbian friends, he would *not suffer* my Wiccan friends to live,
he would remake
> Moscow into a bastion of the Old South. All who aren't on his religious
*page* could be
> enslaved for their own good. (Gosh, Oh Dear, sleeping in the garage would
toughen their
> souls....Once they accept Doug as their saviour, they could come into the
Big House.)
>
>  I, for one, don't think Doug believes a single word of his own
*theology*. For him, it is about
> POWER, not about religion, belief, faith, Jesus Christ, God, or the Bible.
He's smart, he's
> sociopathic, and he needs attention like a bottom feeding carp needs
water. Take away the
> audience, take away the money, take away the sycophants, and Doug deflates
like a balloon
> from the Dollar Store on a hot day.
>
> When I first moved to Moscow, 20 some years back, Doug was holding Bible
studies in his
> garage after having problems with his own father over religion. Now he has
a million$+
> *industry*, tax free, which imports to Moscow, through his *connections*,
people who feel
> disenfranchised by the real world. They get many breaks for housing,
business loans, and
> schooling for their children. Some wise up fast, and do what they can to
distance themselves,
> but many are trapped by the Wilson Machine. This isn't a Pastor, this is a
world class
> racketeer!! His connections to really nasty, racist, and scary folks are
well documented on
> *Not On The Palouse* ( I know you just don't like Tom, but he has done the
research! Just for
> shits and giggles, check out Doug's links to the League of the South).
>
> Again, I have absolutely no problems with the Christian Faith. I have no
problems with any
> religious belief system---from my Pagan point of view, it all takes us to
the same place in the
> end---Be Thee of any Faith, I will embrace and defend Thee. Be Thee a
power hungry, lying,
> despotic, bigoted so-and-so and I will fight Thee to the end of time!!
>
> Debi R-S
>
>
> From:           "rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
> To:             "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Art Deco"
> <deco at moscow.com>
> Subject:        Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> Date sent:      Wed, 5 Jul 2006 22:37:33 -0700
> Copies to:
>
> [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ]
>
> Wayne,
>
> I am sorry, I know I didn't make myself clear in my previous post.  Just
for
> the record, I know the thread and I agree wholeheartedly that Patrick
> Stewart's name should be posted on the Nevada Veteran's Memorial Wall.  I
> don't give a rip what his religion is, or was, he served our country
> honorably and it doesn't matter if he was a Wiccan, Atheist, Mormon,
> Christian or a Martian.  He should be given the honor he earned.  I assume
> we agree to this point.
>
> I was merely amused by all the apparent kissing up to the Wicca Religion
and
> the sudden infatuation with it by so many here on the venom.  Personally,
I
> believe it is quite paganistic and not for me.  That being said, I don't
> care if others choose it as their own faith.
>
> My amusement merely stemmed from all the latitude many give to the Wicca
> while slamming Christianity and those who believe in it, all in the name
of
> diversity and acceptance of personal choice.  I didn't mean it as an
> accusation, only as an observation that I found personally amusing.
>
> Sorry I wasn't more clear.
>
> Dick S.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
>
>
> > Dick,
> >
> > You desperately need the material at
> > http://www.edhelper.com/ReadingComprehension.htm
> >
> >
> > There is nothing in my post than indicates that I embrace Wicca as a
true
> > belief.  I reject all supernatural assertions as being inherently
> > unverifiable, thus doubtful.  Almost all are without clear, tangible
> meaning
> > also.  Those that have tangible meaning are easily disconfirmable or
have
> > minuscule probability.
> >
> > I know it is very hard for you, but when you participate in this forum,
> > please do the other posters the courtesy of at least reading and
> > understanding their posts before making an ass of yourself.
> >
> >
> > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > deco at moscow.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
> > To: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:39 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >
> >
> > > It is so amusing to see how so many of the libs here in the venom are
> > > embracing Wicca while admitting they know little, or nothing, about
it.
> > > It
> > > is always the same with you people:  Any President but Bush and any
> > > religion
> > > but Christianity.
> > >
> > > You are so very translucent.
> > >
> > > Dick S.
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> > > To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:40 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> > >
> > >
> > >> Debi writes:
> > >>
> > >> "Wicca does not have a Central Authority, it does not have Pastors,
> > >> Preachers, or Popes.  It doesn't seek converts, doesn't proselytize,
> > > doesn't
> > >> reject other religions as non-valid."
> > >>
> > >> Holy Jesus!  Are you daring to say that a person can be religious,
> > >> spiritual, kind, loving, concerned about humankind/animalkind etc
> without
> > > an
> > >> organized church to provide detailed instruction and to suck away
their
> > >> money?
> > >>
> > >> I am sorry but your egregiously perverted view has now placed you
among
> > >> other major perverts of the past:  Buddha, Confucius, Christ, Plato,
> > >> Aristotle, Bertrand Russell, Jean Paul Sartre, etc.
> > >>
> > >> Why, if what you say has any truth at all, then a whole lot of
> > > egomaniacal,
> > >> megalomaniacal, and/or just uncritically dumb parasites would be
> > >> instantly
> > >> unemployed.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > >> deco at moscow.com
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> From: <debismith at moscow.com>
> > >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 9:17 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Thanks for posting this, Tom. Also to all of you who have taken
> enough
> > >> > interest in Wicca to do
> > >> > a bit of research.
> > >> >
> > >> > While approximately 1,900 in the military are *out of the broom
> > >> > closet*, many more do not identify themselves as Wiccan simply to
> > > protect
> > >> > themselves.Unless
> > >> > a base has a fairly large contingent of Wiccans (as did Fort Hood),
> it
> > > can
> > >> > be dangerous to let
> > >> > others know  this religion is the one practiced.
> > >> >
> > >> > Wicca does not have a Central Authority, it does not have Pastors,
> > >> > Preachers, or Popes.  It
> > >> > doesn't seek converts, doesn't proseletize, doesn't reject other
> > > religions
> > >> > as nonvalid. What
> > >> > it has is a belief that Diety is imminent, not transcendent, and a
> > >> > focus
> > >> > on care for the Earth
> > >> > and all that inhabits Her. It has one basic tenet: And It Harm
None.
> > > This
> > >> > means anything one
> > >> > puts out into the Universe will return thrice-fold. If it is good
> > >> > deeds,
> > >> > there is a return. If, as in my
> > >> > case, it is snarky e-mails to those I feel it necessary to
confront,
> I
> > > get
> > >> > three equally snotty e-
> > >> > mails back. I'm sometimes willing to take the *karmic hit* and just
> > >> > push
> > >> > *send*, knowing full
> > >> > well Dick, Lame-o Doug, Donovan, or one of the over-aged juvenile
> > > Kirkers
> > >> > will attempt to insult
> > >> > me or even start cyber-stalking again.
> > >> >
> > >> > I am open about my spiritual beliefs. I am open about my political
> > > agenda.
> > >> > I am open about
> > >> > just about everything, because when one attempts secrecy it leaves
> one
> > >> > open to blackmail.
> > >> > One of the v2020 posters, in the not so distant past, attempted to
> > >> > *out*
> > >> > me (I was already out,
> > >> > so BFD), attempted to *report* me to a higher authority (there
isn't
> > > one,
> > >> > so he just annoyed
> > >> > people who didn't care), and attempted to *shame* me for my
> out-spoken
> > >> > behavior (I save
> > >> > feeling ashamed for when I have inadvertantly caused someone
> pain--I'm
> > > not
> > >> > ever ashamed of
> > >> > calling it like I see it).
> > >> >
> > >> > It breaks my heart when I hear that others who share my religious
> > > beliefs
> > >> > are disrespected in
> > >> > the
> > >> > way Patrick Stewart and his family have been disrespected. While I
> may
> > > not
> > >> > agree with the
> > >> > religious perspectives of some others, their right to belief is
never
> > >> > in
> > >> > question. Somehow,
> > >> > Wicca is different than all other faiths?
> > >> >
> > >> > It is particularly poignant that Wiccan  beliefs are likely the
most
> > >> > inoffensive of just about any
> > >> > religion, yet, through misunderstanding and prejudice, many people
> > >> > still
> > >> > think Wicca is devil
> > >> > worship or casting evil spells. These ideas don't have any
> application
> > > to
> > >> > Wicca. We don't even
> > >> > believe in *the Devil*, and (remember Harm None?) just don't do
> > >> > imprecatory prayers or evil
> > >> > spells.  We spend our time recycling, growing organic food, taking
> care
> > > of
> > >> > others, sharing what
> > >> > we have with those who have less, volunteering in our community,
> being
> > >> > involved in politics,
> > >> > and paying attention to the changing seasons (both real and
> > >> > metaphorically).
> > >> >
> > >> > I am hopeful that the VA will get some sense, stop listening to
those
> > > who
> > >> > act out of prejudice
> > >> > rather than information, and allow Roberta Stewart to honor her
> husband
> > >> > with the symbol of his
> > >> > faith. Blessed Be, Roberta.
> > >> >
> > >> > Debi Robinson-Smith
> > >> >
> > >> > "Never retract, never explain, never apologize, just get the job
done
> > > and
> > >> > let them howl."
> > >> > -------Iron Jawed Angels
> > >> > (Thanks to Lois Blackburn, a true Iron Jawed Angel!)
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > From:           "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> > >> > To:             "Joan Opyr" <joanopyr at moscow.com>,
> > >> >       "'Moscow Vision 2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> > Date sent:      Mon, 3 Jul 2006 16:37:17 -0700
> > >> > Copies to:
> > >> > Subject:        [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> > >> >
> > >> > [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ]
> > >> >
> > >> > An editorial from the July 10, 2006 edition of the Army Times -
> > >> >
> > >> > For you Wiccans out there.  You know who you are.
> > >> >
> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > A New Witch Hunt
> > >> > Search for recognition falls victim to misconceptions about Wicca
> > >> >
> > >> > By Charles C. Haynes
> > >> >
> > >> > The current flap involving Wiccans in the military is a conflict
that
> > >> > should
> > >> > never have happened. But years of foot-dragging by the Department
of
> > >> > Veterans Affairs have turned an easy case into a major controversy
> > >> > complete
> > >> > with charges of discrimination and threats of lawsuits.
> > >> >
> > >> > All VA needs to do is announce that the pentacle - a five-pointed
> star
> > >> > that
> > >> > symbolizes the Wiccan faith - has been added to the list of 38
> "emblems
> > > of
> > >> > belief" approved for placement on government headstones and
> memorials.
> > > No
> > >> > big deal, end of story.
> > >> >
> > >> > Instead, VA keeps saying that it is "reviewing the process" - and
> will
> > >> > make
> > >> > a decision at some indeterminate time in the future.
> > >> >
> > >> > Roberta Stewart has been hearing this bureaucratic mumbo jumbo for
> the
> > >> > past
> > >> > eight months. She just wants to honor her husband, Patrick, a
soldier
> > >> > in
> > >> > the
> > >> > Nevada National Guard killed in combat last September in
Afghanistan.
> > > Sgt.
> > >> > Stewart, who was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star and Purple
> Heart,
> > >> > among other honors, was a Wiccan.
> > >> >
> > >> > But Stewart's request to have a pentacle engraved on her husband's
> > >> > memorial
> > >> > plaque has been repeatedly denied pending review of the VA policy.
> His
> > >> > space
> > >> > on the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial wall remains blank.
> > >> >
> > >> > Eventually, VA will have no choice but to allow the pentacle.
Nevada
> > >> > politicians from both parties, as well as advocacy groups from the
> left
> > >> > and
> > >> > right, are demanding the change.
> > >> >
> > >> > Then there is the small matter of the First Amendment: It's clearly
> > >> > unconstitutional for the government to deny the Wiccan symbol while
> > >> > permitting symbols of many other religions.
> > >> >
> > >> > If approval of the pentacle is inevitable, why is VA taking so long
> to
> > >> > make
> > >> > a decision?
> > >> >
> > >> > For Roberta Stewart, it has been a long and frustrating eight
months.
> > > But
> > >> > other Wiccans have been pushing for VA recognition of the pentacle
> for
> > >> > more
> > >> > than nine years. (According to the Defense Department, some 1,900
> > >> > active-duty service members identify themselves as Wiccans.)
> > >> >
> > >> > At first blush, the years of VA stonewalling doesn't make sense. A
> > > glance
> > >> > at
> > >> > the 38 approved emblems suggests that any religion can make the
list.
> > >> > In
> > >> > addition to all of the world's major faiths, a number of obscure
> sects
> > > are
> > >> > represented, such as Eckankar, a New Age group that espouses
> > >> > out-of-body
> > >> > travel. Atheists have a symbol, too. If VA is applying some kind of
> > >> > religious test to keep out the Wiccans, it's hard to fathom what it
> > > might
> > >> > be.
> > >> >
> > >> > Before last fall, VA blamed the rules. Applicants had to provide
> > >> > documentation from a central authority certifying a symbol as
> > >> > representative
> > >> > of that religion. Because Wiccans have no recognized head or
> hierarchy,
> > >> > their applications were rejected. Rules are rules.
> > >> >
> > >> > Bipartisan outrage over Sgt. Stewart's case inspired a new set of
> > >> > rules.
> > >> > Now, applicants are required to provide historic background and
> > >> > documentation of use to get a symbol approved. Roberta Stewart has
> > > filled
> > >> > out all of the forms. But she's still waiting.
> > >> >
> > >> > So what's the problem? VA isn't talking. But the delay may have to
do
> > > with
> > >> > the fact that Roberta Stewart went public. Putting atheists on the
> list
> > >> > when
> > >> > no one is paying attention is one thing, but announcing recognition
> of
> > > the
> > >> > Wiccan pentacle in the glare of the media spotlight is another.
> > >> >
> > >> > Few people have even heard of Eckankar, but almost everyone has an
> > > opinion
> > >> > about Wiccans. Unfortunately, most of what people think they know
> about
> > >> > Wicca is false. Wicca is a nature-based religion centered on a
belief
> > > that
> > >> > the divine permeates all life. Wiccans have nothing to do with
black
> > > magic
> > >> > or satanic worship, but try explaining that to a misinformed
public.
> > >> >
> > >> > VA is probably remembering the last time Wiccans in the military
made
> > >> > headlines. About six years ago, news reports of Wiccan ceremonies
at
> > > Fort
> > >> > Hood, Texas, and other bases provoked some conservative Christian
> > >> > groups
> > >> > to
> > >> > call on Christians not to enlist or re-enlist in the Army.
> > >> >
> > >> > Under the First Amendment, the Army had no choice then, just as VA
> has
> > > no
> > >> > choice now, but to accommodate Wiccans in the same way it
> accommodates
> > >> > other
> > >> > religious groups. But any "acceptance" of witches - who have long
> been
> > >> > demonized in Christian history - is certain to stir up trouble for
> the
> > >> > military.
> > >> >
> > >> > It's also possible that VA lawyers are beginning to realize that
any
> > >> > guidelines for government-sanctioned "emblems of belief," however
> > >> > carefully
> > >> > crafted, are unworkable. In a nation where people are free to
choose
> in
> > >> > matters of faith, the government should stop trying to figure out
> which
> > >> > symbols are "acceptable" and instead allow each family to choose
> > > whatever
> > >> > symbol best represents their convictions.
> > >> >
> > >> > In other words, cut through all of the bureaucratic red tape and
> > > jettison
> > >> > the "emblems of belief" list entirely.
> > >> >
> > >> > Meanwhile, however, VA should act immediately to honor Roberta
> > >> > Stewart's
> > >> > request and fill in the blank space reserved for Sgt. Stewart.
After
> > > all,
> > >> > if
> > >> > we can't live up to religious freedom at home, we have no business
> > > asking
> > >> > soldiers to die for religious freedom abroad.
> > >> >
> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> > >> >
> > >> > Tom Hansen
> > >> > Moscow, Idaho
> > >> >
> > >> > "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the
> > >> > tranquil
> > >> > and steady dedication of a lifetime."
> > >> >
> > >> > --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > =====================================================
> > >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> > ====================================================
> > >> >
> > >> > ------- End of forwarded message -------
> > >> >
> > >> > ------- End of forwarded message -------
> > >> >
> > >> > =====================================================
> > >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >> >               http://www.fsr.net
> > >> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> > ====================================================
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> =====================================================
> > >>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > >>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >>                http://www.fsr.net
> > >>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> ====================================================
> > >>
> > >
> > > =====================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > >               http://www.fsr.net
> > >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > ====================================================
> > >
> > >
> >
> > =====================================================
> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >                http://www.fsr.net
> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > ====================================================
> >
>
> =====================================================
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>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
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> ====================================================
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> =====================================================
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>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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