[Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt

[debismith at moscow.com]

Thanks, Dick, for the clarification. I, too, think that anyone's religious orientation is just fine. I 
don't have any problem with Christianity---it gets lots of folks through tough times, helps them 
access Diety, and gives them a system they can follow to be good with the world and one 
another.

My gripes are not with Christianity, not even with any branch of it. My gripes are with the uses 
to which some people put their religion. This is not limited to those of the Christian persuasion. 
I don't recall anyone on V2020 saying Christianity is bad (but I'm old and forgetful, so please 
cite those times for me). I think you will find a lot of disagreement with Doug Wilson's brand of 
Christianity, and a lot of Christians expressing that disagreement on V2020.

 If Doug Wilson, and his Kirkers, choose a belief system, more power to them. I'm glad it 
works for them, and fervently hope it helps them in dark times. However, the means Doug uses 
to control others, the willingness of the Kirker Boys to harm others, the use of socio-economic 
blackmail evidenced by their Pastor to influence others, and the nasty and vicious language 
they level at all not within their flock do not recommend Christianity to those with functioning 
brain cells. This behavior gets a rise out of Christians, Pagans, Jews, Jainists, Muslims, and 
just about every other faith community. Doug has even insulted the Mormons (the religious 
group of my extended family) by declaring the Church of JESUS CHRIST Latter Day Saints, to 
be non-Christian. He even had flyers put on windshields at the Mormon Church to that effect!

Dougs theology isn't the issue. It's not about religion, it's about Doug, his toadies, his tactics, 
and his political agenda. He wants a Doug Nation beginning in Moscow. He would exile my 
gay and lesbian friends, he would *not suffer* my Wiccan friends to live, he would remake 
Moscow into a bastion of the Old South. All who aren't on his religious *page* could be 
enslaved for their own good. (Gosh, Oh Dear, sleeping in the garage would toughen their 
souls....Once they accept Doug as their saviour, they could come into the Big House.)

 I, for one, don't think Doug believes a single word of his own *theology*. For him, it is about 
POWER, not about religion, belief, faith, Jesus Christ, God, or the Bible. He's smart, he's 
sociopathic, and he needs attention like a bottom feeding carp needs water. Take away the 
audience, take away the money, take away the sycophants, and Doug deflates like a balloon 
from the Dollar Store on a hot day.

When I first moved to Moscow, 20 some years back, Doug was holding Bible studies in his 
garage after having problems with his own father over religion. Now he has a million$+ 
*industry*, tax free, which imports to Moscow, through his *connections*,  people who feel 
disenfranchised by the real world. They get many breaks for housing, business loans, and 
schooling for their children. Some wise up fast, and do what they can to distance themselves, 
but many are trapped by the Wilson Machine. This isn't a Pastor, this is a world class 
racketeer!! His connections to really nasty, racist, and scary folks are well documented on 
*Not On The Palouse* ( I know you just don't like Tom, but he has done the research! Just for 
shits and giggles, check out Doug's links to the League of the South). 

Again, I have absolutely no problems with the Christian Faith. I have no problems with any 
religious belief system---from my Pagan point of view, it all takes us to the same place in the 
end---Be Thee of any Faith, I will embrace and defend Thee. Be Thee a power hungry, lying, 
despotic, bigoted so-and-so and I will fight Thee to the end of time!!

Debi R-S


From:           	"rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
To:             	"Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Art Deco" 
<deco at moscow.com>
Subject:        	Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
Date sent:      	Wed, 5 Jul 2006 22:37:33 -0700
Copies to:      	

[ Double-click this line for list subscription options ] 

Wayne,

I am sorry, I know I didn't make myself clear in my previous post.  Just for
the record, I know the thread and I agree wholeheartedly that Patrick
Stewart's name should be posted on the Nevada Veteran's Memorial Wall.  I
don't give a rip what his religion is, or was, he served our country
honorably and it doesn't matter if he was a Wiccan, Atheist, Mormon,
Christian or a Martian.  He should be given the honor he earned.  I assume
we agree to this point.

I was merely amused by all the apparent kissing up to the Wicca Religion and
the sudden infatuation with it by so many here on the venom.  Personally, I
believe it is quite paganistic and not for me.  That being said, I don't
care if others choose it as their own faith.

My amusement merely stemmed from all the latitude many give to the Wicca
while slamming Christianity and those who believe in it, all in the name of
diversity and acceptance of personal choice.  I didn't mean it as an
accusation, only as an observation that I found personally amusing.

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Dick S.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt


> Dick,
>
> You desperately need the material at
> http://www.edhelper.com/ReadingComprehension.htm
>
>
> There is nothing in my post than indicates that I embrace Wicca as a true
> belief.  I reject all supernatural assertions as being inherently
> unverifiable, thus doubtful.  Almost all are without clear, tangible
meaning
> also.  Those that have tangible meaning are easily disconfirmable or have
> minuscule probability.
>
> I know it is very hard for you, but when you participate in this forum,
> please do the other posters the courtesy of at least reading and
> understanding their posts before making an ass of yourself.
>
>
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> deco at moscow.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "rvrcowboy" <rvrcowboy at clearwire.net>
> To: "Vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
>
>
> > It is so amusing to see how so many of the libs here in the venom are
> > embracing Wicca while admitting they know little, or nothing, about it.
> > It
> > is always the same with you people:  Any President but Bush and any
> > religion
> > but Christianity.
> >
> > You are so very translucent.
> >
> > Dick S.
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> > To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >
> >
> >> Debi writes:
> >>
> >> "Wicca does not have a Central Authority, it does not have Pastors,
> >> Preachers, or Popes.  It doesn't seek converts, doesn't proselytize,
> > doesn't
> >> reject other religions as non-valid."
> >>
> >> Holy Jesus!  Are you daring to say that a person can be religious,
> >> spiritual, kind, loving, concerned about humankind/animalkind etc
without
> > an
> >> organized church to provide detailed instruction and to suck away their
> >> money?
> >>
> >> I am sorry but your egregiously perverted view has now placed you among
> >> other major perverts of the past:  Buddha, Confucius, Christ, Plato,
> >> Aristotle, Bertrand Russell, Jean Paul Sartre, etc.
> >>
> >> Why, if what you say has any truth at all, then a whole lot of
> > egomaniacal,
> >> megalomaniacal, and/or just uncritically dumb parasites would be
> >> instantly
> >> unemployed.
> >>
> >>
> >> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> >> deco at moscow.com
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: <debismith at moscow.com>
> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 9:17 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >>
> >>
> >> > Thanks for posting this, Tom. Also to all of you who have taken
enough
> >> > interest in Wicca to do
> >> > a bit of research.
> >> >
> >> > While approximately 1,900 in the military are *out of the broom
> >> > closet*, many more do not identify themselves as Wiccan simply to
> > protect
> >> > themselves.Unless
> >> > a base has a fairly large contingent of Wiccans (as did Fort Hood),
it
> > can
> >> > be dangerous to let
> >> > others know  this religion is the one practiced.
> >> >
> >> > Wicca does not have a Central Authority, it does not have Pastors,
> >> > Preachers, or Popes.  It
> >> > doesn't seek converts, doesn't proseletize, doesn't reject other
> > religions
> >> > as nonvalid. What
> >> > it has is a belief that Diety is imminent, not transcendent, and a
> >> > focus
> >> > on care for the Earth
> >> > and all that inhabits Her. It has one basic tenet: And It Harm None.
> > This
> >> > means anything one
> >> > puts out into the Universe will return thrice-fold. If it is good
> >> > deeds,
> >> > there is a return. If, as in my
> >> > case, it is snarky e-mails to those I feel it necessary to confront,
I
> > get
> >> > three equally snotty e-
> >> > mails back. I'm sometimes willing to take the *karmic hit* and just
> >> > push
> >> > *send*, knowing full
> >> > well Dick, Lame-o Doug, Donovan, or one of the over-aged juvenile
> > Kirkers
> >> > will attempt to insult
> >> > me or even start cyber-stalking again.
> >> >
> >> > I am open about my spiritual beliefs. I am open about my political
> > agenda.
> >> > I am open about
> >> > just about everything, because when one attempts secrecy it leaves
one
> >> > open to blackmail.
> >> > One of the v2020 posters, in the not so distant past, attempted to
> >> > *out*
> >> > me (I was already out,
> >> > so BFD), attempted to *report* me to a higher authority (there isn't
> > one,
> >> > so he just annoyed
> >> > people who didn't care), and attempted to *shame* me for my
out-spoken
> >> > behavior (I save
> >> > feeling ashamed for when I have inadvertantly caused someone
pain--I'm
> > not
> >> > ever ashamed of
> >> > calling it like I see it).
> >> >
> >> > It breaks my heart when I hear that others who share my religious
> > beliefs
> >> > are disrespected in
> >> > the
> >> > way Patrick Stewart and his family have been disrespected. While I
may
> > not
> >> > agree with the
> >> > religious perspectives of some others, their right to belief is never
> >> > in
> >> > question. Somehow,
> >> > Wicca is different than all other faiths?
> >> >
> >> > It is particularly poignant that Wiccan  beliefs are likely the most
> >> > inoffensive of just about any
> >> > religion, yet, through misunderstanding and prejudice, many people
> >> > still
> >> > think Wicca is devil
> >> > worship or casting evil spells. These ideas don't have any
application
> > to
> >> > Wicca. We don't even
> >> > believe in *the Devil*, and (remember Harm None?) just don't do
> >> > imprecatory prayers or evil
> >> > spells.  We spend our time recycling, growing organic food, taking
care
> > of
> >> > others, sharing what
> >> > we have with those who have less, volunteering in our community,
being
> >> > involved in politics,
> >> > and paying attention to the changing seasons (both real and
> >> > metaphorically).
> >> >
> >> > I am hopeful that the VA will get some sense, stop listening to those
> > who
> >> > act out of prejudice
> >> > rather than information, and allow Roberta Stewart to honor her
husband
> >> > with the symbol of his
> >> > faith. Blessed Be, Roberta.
> >> >
> >> > Debi Robinson-Smith
> >> >
> >> > "Never retract, never explain, never apologize, just get the job done
> > and
> >> > let them howl."
> >> > -------Iron Jawed Angels
> >> > (Thanks to Lois Blackburn, a true Iron Jawed Angel!)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > From:           "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> >> > To:             "Joan Opyr" <joanopyr at moscow.com>,
> >> >       "'Moscow Vision 2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> > Date sent:      Mon, 3 Jul 2006 16:37:17 -0700
> >> > Copies to:
> >> > Subject:        [Vision2020] A New Witch Hunt
> >> >
> >> > [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ]
> >> >
> >> > An editorial from the July 10, 2006 edition of the Army Times -
> >> >
> >> > For you Wiccans out there.  You know who you are.
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > A New Witch Hunt
> >> > Search for recognition falls victim to misconceptions about Wicca
> >> >
> >> > By Charles C. Haynes
> >> >
> >> > The current flap involving Wiccans in the military is a conflict that
> >> > should
> >> > never have happened. But years of foot-dragging by the Department of
> >> > Veterans Affairs have turned an easy case into a major controversy
> >> > complete
> >> > with charges of discrimination and threats of lawsuits.
> >> >
> >> > All VA needs to do is announce that the pentacle - a five-pointed
star
> >> > that
> >> > symbolizes the Wiccan faith - has been added to the list of 38
"emblems
> > of
> >> > belief" approved for placement on government headstones and
memorials.
> > No
> >> > big deal, end of story.
> >> >
> >> > Instead, VA keeps saying that it is "reviewing the process" - and
will
> >> > make
> >> > a decision at some indeterminate time in the future.
> >> >
> >> > Roberta Stewart has been hearing this bureaucratic mumbo jumbo for
the
> >> > past
> >> > eight months. She just wants to honor her husband, Patrick, a soldier
> >> > in
> >> > the
> >> > Nevada National Guard killed in combat last September in Afghanistan.
> > Sgt.
> >> > Stewart, who was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star and Purple
Heart,
> >> > among other honors, was a Wiccan.
> >> >
> >> > But Stewart's request to have a pentacle engraved on her husband's
> >> > memorial
> >> > plaque has been repeatedly denied pending review of the VA policy.
His
> >> > space
> >> > on the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial wall remains blank.
> >> >
> >> > Eventually, VA will have no choice but to allow the pentacle. Nevada
> >> > politicians from both parties, as well as advocacy groups from the
left
> >> > and
> >> > right, are demanding the change.
> >> >
> >> > Then there is the small matter of the First Amendment: It's clearly
> >> > unconstitutional for the government to deny the Wiccan symbol while
> >> > permitting symbols of many other religions.
> >> >
> >> > If approval of the pentacle is inevitable, why is VA taking so long
to
> >> > make
> >> > a decision?
> >> >
> >> > For Roberta Stewart, it has been a long and frustrating eight months.
> > But
> >> > other Wiccans have been pushing for VA recognition of the pentacle
for
> >> > more
> >> > than nine years. (According to the Defense Department, some 1,900
> >> > active-duty service members identify themselves as Wiccans.)
> >> >
> >> > At first blush, the years of VA stonewalling doesn't make sense. A
> > glance
> >> > at
> >> > the 38 approved emblems suggests that any religion can make the list.
> >> > In
> >> > addition to all of the world's major faiths, a number of obscure
sects
> > are
> >> > represented, such as Eckankar, a New Age group that espouses
> >> > out-of-body
> >> > travel. Atheists have a symbol, too. If VA is applying some kind of
> >> > religious test to keep out the Wiccans, it's hard to fathom what it
> > might
> >> > be.
> >> >
> >> > Before last fall, VA blamed the rules. Applicants had to provide
> >> > documentation from a central authority certifying a symbol as
> >> > representative
> >> > of that religion. Because Wiccans have no recognized head or
hierarchy,
> >> > their applications were rejected. Rules are rules.
> >> >
> >> > Bipartisan outrage over Sgt. Stewart's case inspired a new set of
> >> > rules.
> >> > Now, applicants are required to provide historic background and
> >> > documentation of use to get a symbol approved. Roberta Stewart has
> > filled
> >> > out all of the forms. But she's still waiting.
> >> >
> >> > So what's the problem? VA isn't talking. But the delay may have to do
> > with
> >> > the fact that Roberta Stewart went public. Putting atheists on the
list
> >> > when
> >> > no one is paying attention is one thing, but announcing recognition
of
> > the
> >> > Wiccan pentacle in the glare of the media spotlight is another.
> >> >
> >> > Few people have even heard of Eckankar, but almost everyone has an
> > opinion
> >> > about Wiccans. Unfortunately, most of what people think they know
about
> >> > Wicca is false. Wicca is a nature-based religion centered on a belief
> > that
> >> > the divine permeates all life. Wiccans have nothing to do with black
> > magic
> >> > or satanic worship, but try explaining that to a misinformed public.
> >> >
> >> > VA is probably remembering the last time Wiccans in the military made
> >> > headlines. About six years ago, news reports of Wiccan ceremonies at
> > Fort
> >> > Hood, Texas, and other bases provoked some conservative Christian
> >> > groups
> >> > to
> >> > call on Christians not to enlist or re-enlist in the Army.
> >> >
> >> > Under the First Amendment, the Army had no choice then, just as VA
has
> > no
> >> > choice now, but to accommodate Wiccans in the same way it
accommodates
> >> > other
> >> > religious groups. But any "acceptance" of witches - who have long
been
> >> > demonized in Christian history - is certain to stir up trouble for
the
> >> > military.
> >> >
> >> > It's also possible that VA lawyers are beginning to realize that any
> >> > guidelines for government-sanctioned "emblems of belief," however
> >> > carefully
> >> > crafted, are unworkable. In a nation where people are free to choose
in
> >> > matters of faith, the government should stop trying to figure out
which
> >> > symbols are "acceptable" and instead allow each family to choose
> > whatever
> >> > symbol best represents their convictions.
> >> >
> >> > In other words, cut through all of the bureaucratic red tape and
> > jettison
> >> > the "emblems of belief" list entirely.
> >> >
> >> > Meanwhile, however, VA should act immediately to honor Roberta
> >> > Stewart's
> >> > request and fill in the blank space reserved for Sgt. Stewart. After
> > all,
> >> > if
> >> > we can't live up to religious freedom at home, we have no business
> > asking
> >> > soldiers to die for religious freedom abroad.
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
> >> >
> >> > Tom Hansen
> >> > Moscow, Idaho
> >> >
> >> > "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the
> >> > tranquil
> >> > and steady dedication of a lifetime."
> >> >
> >> > --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > =====================================================
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> >> >
> >> > ------- End of forwarded message -------
> >> >
> >> > ------- End of forwarded message -------
> >> >
> >> > =====================================================
> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
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> >> >
> >> >
> >>
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> >>
> >
> > =====================================================
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> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > ====================================================
> >
> >
>
> =====================================================
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