[Vision2020] One more WalMart thing . . .

Tue Jan 31 04:25:50 PST 2006

It is not a question of being forthcoming, Crabtree, it is a question of being informative.
I really don't need advice from you about how I should or shouldn't limit my choices. I could tell you not to cry about having to go to Pullman to get your Super Wal-Mart crap. Well, I could if I was a rude old bastard like you. And how does any of the rant below respond to my main point, which is that the so-called 'free market' does not lead to a greater number of choices? It leads, I claim, to coke or pepsi; McDonalds or Wendy's; Pullman Super Wal-Mart or Moscow Super Wal-Mart. Of course, expecting you to respond to my questions is to suppose that you actually wanted to engage in some dialogue instead of insult people in public.
I hate to tell you but I don't trust your opinion that two Super Wal-Marts in a 15 mile area won't change the town for the worse. But that's only because you give me no reason to think that you know what the hell you're talking about.
--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" wrote:

=============
Mr. Campbell, What I said with Regard to KB was " KB toys was undergoing a certain amount of financial disorganization at the time the local store closed." Sorry I wasn't more forthcoming with the gruesome details.

My argument is not, and never was, that there should be legislation that provides you with as many choices as your little heart might desire. If you elect to limit your own choices by avoiding the use of the internet and mail order outlets I couldn't care less although it seems odd that on one hand you cry out for choice and then go out of your way to avoid it. Must be a philosopher thing.

I have no opinion about your motives, selfish or otherwise but how does having the herd get together and "just say no to Wal-Mart" make Moscow unique? Thousands of communities have no Wal-Mart. Thousands of towns do. Where is the unique? I really hate to be the guy to break the news that there is no Santa but this is Anytown, USA. It has its good points and people and it has its bad points and Tom Hanson. Wal-Mart wont change that equation very much.

G. Crabtree
----- Original Message -----
From: joekc at adelphia.net
To: Jeff Harkins
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One more WalMart thing . . .

Jeff,

Thanks, very much, for the explanation of KB Toys demise. Apologies to J. Ford who hinted at a similar point that I failed to investigate further. (I did a quick search for KB on the web, and find a website, thought that they were still in business.) I don't remember Gary saying anything even close to the explanation below, but either way the details are helpful.

A few points though. The Moscow store was closed well before the Spokane store. I find it hard to believe that local market factors had nothing to do with this. But this is a minor point.

A somewhat more substantive point is that toy stores like KB Toys, as well as grocery stores like Albertsons, are having a difficult time staying in business given the success of Super Wal-Marts. Jeff, you know a lot about economics but you know nothing about toys if you think that the selection at Wal-Mart and the selection at KB Toys is the same. It just isn't. Trust me. I've spent a lot of time in the last few years in each (I shoped at Wal-Mart regularly up until 2 months ago). Just taking hot wheels cars, for instance, KB had a much better selection.

Further, my claim was not that "good businesses were being driven out by bad businesses." My point was that the so-called 'free market' does not always lead to an increase in consumer choice. It was a rebutal of an old article of economic faith uttered continuously by Donovan but, I believe, also by yourself and Gary.

Let's skip the KB example since there are facts about that case of which I am clearly ignorant. Let's, instead, borrow a piece of economic analysis offered by Gary in a previous post. There he claimed that KB Toys and its ilk were being pushed out by a move toward computer games and other electronic toys as well as the increase of web-based toy stores. It just so happens that (a) I don't like computer games and I don't want my son to play them (I'll save you the explanation) and (b) I don't like to order things on-line (I'll save you the explanation here, too). Sure, I'm old-fashioned but my point is the the so-called free market has not lead to a greater number of choices for the consumer. We are forced now by 'consumer demand' to purchase new and different toys in stores or older models on-line. There is only an appearance of an increase of choice provided that you happen to like what the majority of people like. If your tastes and inclinations go against the majority, too bad for you.

Again, Gary might say something about my selfish motivations but he is (again) missing the point. I ask you, people of Moscow: Do you live here because Moscow is like every place else or because it is different? Do you think of yourself as someone who thinks just like everyone else or someone who thinks outside the box? If the answer to both is the latter, do what you can to CHOOSE now to ensure that Moscow remains unique before low-cost and convenience turns it into Anytown, USA.
--
Joe Campbell

---- Jeff Harkins wrote:

=============
Before I invest the time necessary to unravel the
comments by Mr. Schou, I need to divest myself
from the claim by Ms. Opyr that I asked for an
example of a good business driven out by a bad
(or whatever). I made no such request. I did
respond to the query raised by Gary (which I
considered an appropriate question, given the
claim by J Campbell that good businesses were
being driven out by bad businesses - the thread
is clear - J Campbell offered up the example)

I provided evidence supporting a position that KB
Toys left Moscow, entered into E-commerce as a
result of being convicted of charges of price
manipulation, which appears to have resulted in
their declaration of bankruptcy. If there was a
Wal-Mart connection, it doesn't appear to be part of the public record.

Ms. Opyr appears to be careless in her reading
and quick to indict. It would make V2020 more
useful as a public forum if you would be more careful in your posts.

I am unsure of the value of knowing Ms. Opyr's
consumption habits. Personal consumption habits
are ...... personal. Oddly enough, I found a
very different toy selection at Wal-Mart than she
described. While shopping for toys for nieces
and nephews this Christmas season, I noted that
most all the retailers in the area carried pretty
much the same toys (my guess is that their
inventory is driven by what they perceive their
market demand is - ah - what the kids want!) The
real challenge was to find a retailer that
actually had the item in stock (not sold
out). Some of the items were found in the malls,
some at Walmart - alas - some could only be found in Spokane.

But, as to the availability of KB Toys, their
products are still available through their E-Commerce site.

Finally, I took no personal position on whether
KB was a good business or a bad business - we all
have our personal and subjective standards for
such qualitative judgments. I did make the claim
that KB Toys was not a superior business and I
did provide additional information so that those
interested would have more info about the factors
leading to KB's decision to close the Moscow Mall store.

Now, to the Schou matter .... till then.

At 03:43 PM 1/30/2006, you wrote:
>Dear Visionaries:
>
>Jeff Harkins and Gary Crabtree asked a few days
>ago for examples of good businesses driven
>out
>by bad. Joe Campbell attempted to supply them
>with just such an example in the demise of
>KayBee Toys. The problem here, however, is not
>with Joe's answer but with Harkins' and
>Crabtree's question, which is a classic example
>of petititio elenchi, i.e., begging the
>question.
>
>The underlying assumption in Harkins/Crabtree's
>reasoning is that the "good" or "superior"
>
>business is always the one that survives. But
>that reasoning depends on how you define
>superior. KayBee Toys, which offered a
>demonstrably superior selection of goods than
>WalMart,
>went out of business. Is WalMart therefore the
>better store? Define better. WalMart
>offers five
>aisles of cheap, plastic, Chinese-made toys,
>none of which I'd care to purchase. Like
>Joe, I prefer
>to buy my kids' toys at Hodgins
>Drugs. Why? Quality and selection. It's also possible
>at Hodgins
>to buy the occasional union-made toy. Flip the
>toy and read the box. If it's made in a
>country
>noted for its poor labor practices, tell your
>kids, "Sorry, but I suspect that someone
>your age
>manufactured this doll in an overseas sweatshop." Move on to the next item.
>
>(There, Dale -- more evidence for your blog that I'm a communist.)
>
>In Harkins/Crabtree's view, it would seem that
>cheaper is always better. Perhaps
>convenience
>also plays some role (KayBee Toys didn't sell
>toothpaste or underwear) but weren't we also
>
>talking about expansion of choice? How does
>WalMart (or a WalMart Supercenter) represent
>a
>genuine expansion of choice? What WalMart
>offers is an inferior selection of toys, most
>of poor
>quality, but it offers them at cheap prices and
>conveniently locates them between the
>furnace
>filters and the dog food. My expanded choice
>seems to be mere convenience and the chance
>to
>buy something crappy and disposable for my
>kids. It's the bargain that isn't a bargain --
>it's
>penny-wise and pound-foolish.
>
>We have a WalMart already. We need WalMart
>Supercenters in both Moscow and Pullman why?
>Because Winco, Rosauers, Safeway, the Co-Op,
>Dissmore's, the Pullman Safeway, Tri-State,
>Hodgins, Les Schwab, Bruneel, Sears,
>Deranleau's, Bookpeople, Hastings, Gottschalk's, the
>Bon,
>Ross Dress for Less, RiteAid, JoAnn's,
>HyperSpud, Paradise Creek Bicycles, Paradise Ridge
>Records, Goodwill, Shopko, the Internet, and
>Moscow's existing WalMart aren't offering us
>enough choice? Or because they're not offering us enough cheap crap?
>
>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
>www.joanopyr.com
>
>
>---------------------------------------------
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>
>
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