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It is not a question of being forthcoming, Crabtree, it is a question
of being informative.
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I really don't need advice from you about how I should or shouldn't
limit my choices. I could tell you not to cry about having to go to
Pullman to get your Super Wal-Mart crap. Well, I could if I was a rude
old bastard like you. And how does any of the rant below respond to my
main point, which is that the so-called 'free market' does not lead to
a greater number of choices? It leads, I claim, to coke or pepsi;
McDonalds or Wendy's; Pullman Super Wal-Mart or Moscow Super Wal-Mart.
Of course, expecting you to respond to my questions is to suppose that
you actually wanted to engage in some dialogue instead of insult
people in public.
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I hate to tell you but I don't trust your opinion that two Super
Wal-Marts in a 15 mile area won't change the town for the worse. But
that's only because you give me no reason to think that you know what
the hell you're talking about.<br>--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>---- "g.
crabtree" <jampot adelphia.net="#DEFAULT">wrote:<br><br>
=============<br>Mr. Campbell, What I said with Regard to KB was " KB
toys was undergoing a certain amount of financial disorganization at
the time the local store closed." Sorry I wasn't more forthcoming with
the gruesome details.<br><br>My argument is not, and never was, that
there should be legislation that provides you with as many choices as
your little heart might desire. If you elect to limit your own choices
by avoiding the use of the internet and mail order outlets I couldn't
care less although it seems odd that on one hand you cry out for
choice and then go out of your way to avoid it. Must be a philosopher
thing.<br><br>I have no opinion about your motives, selfish or
otherwise but how does having the herd get together and "just say no
to Wal-Mart" make Moscow unique? Thousands of communities have no
Wal-Mart. Thousands of towns do. Where is the unique? I really hate to
be the guy to break the news that there is no Santa but this is
Anytown, USA. It has its good points and people and it has its bad
points and Tom Hanson. Wal-Mart wont change that equation very much.<br><br>
G. Crabtree<br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: joekc@adelphia.net<br>To:
Jeff Harkins<br>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Sent: Monday, January 30,
2006 7:46 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One more WalMart thing . . .<br><br><br>
Jeff,<br><br>Thanks, very much, for the explanation of KB Toys demise.
Apologies to J. Ford who hinted at a similar point that I failed to
investigate further. (I did a quick search for KB on the web, and find
a website, thought that they were still in business.) I don't remember
Gary saying anything even close to the explanation below, but either
way the details are helpful.<br><br>A few points though. The Moscow
store was closed well before the Spokane store. I find it hard to
believe that local market factors had nothing to do with this. But
this is a minor point.<br><br>A somewhat more substantive point is
that toy stores like KB Toys, as well as grocery stores like
Albertsons, are having a difficult time staying in business given the
success of Super Wal-Marts. Jeff, you know a lot about economics but
you know nothing about toys if you think that the selection at
Wal-Mart and the selection at KB Toys is the same. It just isn't.
Trust me. I've spent a lot of time in the last few years in each (I
shoped at Wal-Mart regularly up until 2 months ago). Just taking hot
wheels cars, for instance, KB had a much better selection.<br><br>
Further, my claim was not that "good businesses were being driven out
by bad businesses." My point was that the so-called 'free market' does
not always lead to an increase in consumer choice. It was a rebutal of
an old article of economic faith uttered continuously by Donovan but,
I believe, also by yourself and Gary.<br><br>Let's skip the KB example
since there are facts about that case of which I am clearly ignorant.
Let's, instead, borrow a piece of economic analysis offered by Gary in
a previous post. There he claimed that KB Toys and its ilk were being
pushed out by a move toward computer games and other electronic toys
as well as the increase of web-based toy stores. It just so happens
that (a) I don't like computer games and I don't want my son to play
them (I'll save you the explanation) and (b) I don't like to order
things on-line (I'll save you the explanation here, too). Sure, I'm
old-fashioned but my point is the the so-called free market has not
lead to a greater number of choices for the consumer. We are forced
now by 'consumer demand' to purchase new and different toys in stores
or older models on-line. There is only an appearance of an increase of
choice provided that you happen to like what the majority of people
like. If your tastes and inclinations go against the majority, too bad
for you.<br><br>Again, Gary might say something about my selfish
motivations but he is (again) missing the point. I ask you, people of
Moscow: Do you live here because Moscow is like every place else or
because it is different? Do you think of yourself as someone who
thinks just like everyone else or someone who thinks outside the box?
If the answer to both is the latter, do what you can to CHOOSE now to
ensure that Moscow remains unique before low-cost and convenience
turns it into Anytown, USA.<br>--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>---- Jeff
Harkins wrote:<br><br>=============<br>Before I invest the time
necessary to unravel the<br>comments by Mr. Schou, I need to divest
myself<br>from the claim by Ms. Opyr that I asked for an<br>example of
a good business driven out by a bad<br>(or whatever). I made no such
request. I did<br>respond to the query raised by Gary (which I<br>
considered an appropriate question, given the<br>claim by J Campbell
that good businesses were<br>being driven out by bad businesses - the
thread<br>is clear - J Campbell offered up the example)<br><br>I
provided evidence supporting a position that KB<br>Toys left Moscow,
entered into E-commerce as a<br>result of being convicted of charges
of price<br>manipulation, which appears to have resulted in<br>their
declaration of bankruptcy. If there was a<br>Wal-Mart connection, it
doesn't appear to be part of the public record.<br><br>Ms. Opyr
appears to be careless in her reading<br>and quick to indict. It would
make V2020 more<br>useful as a public forum if you would be more
careful in your posts.<br><br>I am unsure of the value of knowing Ms.
Opyr's<br>consumption habits. Personal consumption habits<br>are
...... personal. Oddly enough, I found a<br>very different toy
selection at Wal-Mart than she<br>described. While shopping for toys
for nieces<br>and nephews this Christmas season, I noted that<br>most
all the retailers in the area carried pretty<br>much the same toys (my
guess is that their<br>inventory is driven by what they perceive their<br>
market demand is - ah - what the kids want!) The<br>real challenge was to find
a retailer that<br>actually had the item in stock (not sold<br>out).
Some of the items were found in the malls,<br>some at Walmart - alas -
some could only be found in Spokane.<br><br>But, as to the
availability of KB Toys, their<br>products are still available through
their E-Commerce site.<br><br>Finally, I took no personal position on
whether<br>KB was a good business or a bad business - we all<br>have
our personal and subjective standards for<br>such qualitative
judgments. I did make the claim<br>that KB Toys was not a superior
business and I<br>did provide additional information so that those<br>
interested would have more info about the factors<br>leading to KB's
decision to close the Moscow Mall store.<br><br>Now, to the Schou
matter .... till then.<br><br><br>At 03:43 PM 1/30/2006, you wrote:<br>
>Dear Visionaries:<br>><br>>Jeff Harkins and Gary Crabtree asked
a few days<br>>ago for examples of good businesses driven<br>>out<br>
>by bad. Joe Campbell attempted to supply them<br>>with just such an
example in the demise of<br>>KayBee Toys. The problem here, however,
is not<br>>with Joe's answer but with Harkins' and<br>>Crabtree's
question, which is a classic example<br>>of petititio elenchi, i.e.,
begging the<br>>question.<br>><br>>The underlying assumption in
Harkins/Crabtree's<br>>reasoning is that the "good" or "superior"<br>
><br>>business is always the one that survives. But<br>>that reasoning
depends on how you define<br>>superior. KayBee Toys, which offered a<br>
>demonstrably superior selection of goods than<br>>WalMart,<br>>went out
of business. Is WalMart therefore the<br>>better store? Define better.
WalMart<br>>offers five<br>>aisles of cheap, plastic, Chinese-made
toys,<br>>none of which I'd care to purchase. Like<br>>Joe, I prefer<br>
>to buy my kids' toys at Hodgins<br>>Drugs. Why? Quality and selection.
It's also possible<br>>at Hodgins<br>>to buy the occasional
union-made toy. Flip the<br>>toy and read the box. If it's made in a<br>
>country<br>>noted for its poor labor practices, tell your<br>>kids,
"Sorry, but I suspect that someone<br>>your age<br>
>manufactured this doll in an overseas sweatshop." Move on to the next
item.<br>><br>>(There, Dale -- more evidence for your blog that I'm
a communist.)<br>><br>>In Harkins/Crabtree's view, it would seem
that<br>>cheaper is always better. Perhaps<br>>convenience<br>
>also plays some role (KayBee Toys didn't sell<br>>toothpaste or
underwear) but weren't we also<br>><br>>talking about expansion of
choice? How does<br>>WalMart (or a WalMart Supercenter) represent<br>
>a<br>>genuine expansion of choice? What WalMart<br>>offers is an
inferior selection of toys, most<br>>of poor<br>>quality, but it
offers them at cheap prices and<br>>conveniently locates them between
the<br>>furnace<br>>filters and the dog food. My expanded choice<br>
>seems to be mere convenience and the chance<br>>to<br>>buy something
crappy and disposable for my<br>>kids. It's the bargain that isn't a
bargain --<br>>it's<br>>penny-wise and pound-foolish.<br>><br>
>We have a WalMart already. We need WalMart<br>>Supercenters in
both Moscow and Pullman why?<br>>Because Winco, Rosauers, Safeway, the
Co-Op,<br>>Dissmore's, the Pullman Safeway, Tri-State,<br>>Hodgins,
Les Schwab, Bruneel, Sears,<br>>Deranleau's, Bookpeople, Hastings,
Gottschalk's, the<br>>Bon,<br>>Ross Dress for Less, RiteAid,
JoAnn's,<br>>HyperSpud, Paradise Creek Bicycles, Paradise Ridge<br>
>Records, Goodwill, Shopko, the Internet, and<br>>Moscow's existing
WalMart aren't offering us<br>>enough choice? Or because they're not
offering us enough cheap crap?<br>><br>>Joan Opyr/Auntie
Establishment<br>>www.joanopyr.com<br>><br>><br>
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