[Vision2020] What I learned (aka thinking v. self-deceipt)

[Richard Schmidt]

Chris,

Have you been a little chilly up there recently? I saw on the news the other 
night it was -51 in Anchorage.

Dick Schmidt

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Storhok" <cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us>
To: "'Phil Nisbet'" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>; "Chris Storhok" 
<cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] What I learned (aka thinking v. self-deceipt)


> Phil,
> I am agreement with you that, hopefully, Sago will convince Congress
> and the Administration to revive the USBM.  The value of research 
> performed
> by USBM far exceeded the trivial cost to taxpayers.  USBM work on mine
> safety, environmental remediation, mineral exploration, mineral and metal
> processing, and other research was cutting edge and the lack of this type 
> of
> research from the US in the last decade is starting to affect the 
> industry.
> As you are aware, the US is rapidly falling behind and as we saw at Sago
> lives are being lost.
> The death of USBM directly triggered the demise of schools of mining
> at several universities such as UNR, Mich. Tech, U of I; unfortunately US
> colleges and universities cannot fill the current need for mining,
> metallurgical, geological and environmental engineers.  Pego mine, just 
> east
> of Fairbanks, has been advertising for months for qualified engineers and
> have yet to find suitable candidates.
> I hope that this trend of cutting higher education programs,
> especially engineering, soon reverses itself before permanent damage is 
> done
> to our nation.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Nisbet [mailto:pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:08 AM
> To: cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] What I learned (aka thinking v. self-deceipt)
>
> Chris
>
> A lot of my friends lost their jobs when the USBM closed its doors.  The
> original proposal was Bruce Babbitt's and you are correct that Gingrich
> signed up for it after we tried with might and main from 1994-1996 to save
> it.  The action was sponsered by both those who wanted to hurt mine
> regulators and by those who wanted to hurt the mining industry, so they
> ended up with both Democrats and Republicans on board with it.  It was as
> silly a move as closing the College of Mines here at the U of I was.  All
> shutting the USBM's down did was hurt mine safety and the $100,000,000 in
> supposed savings is something we will pay for through having to buy 
> overseas
>
> mine safety technology and in lost lives and slower regulatory change.
>
> So Newt, Babbit and Ivins, three of my least favorite people in this 
> world,
> managed to convince Congress and the Executive branches to wipe out the
> USBM.  Its one of those a pox on both your houses deals as far as I am
> concerned.  If Sago does anything, I hope like Heck its to get the USBM
> reopened so that America can get back its cutting edge in mine safety. 
> Heck
>
> the life that is saved just might be my own.
>
> Phil Nisbet
>
> PS  I did mention the GOP's role in the original post that Jim Meyers was
> commenting on.  It is one of the areas that the Republican Party always
> seems to spite its nose on, to whit government research and development
> especially in safety.
>
>
>>From: Chris Storhok <cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us>
>>To: 'Phil Nisbet' <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>, m1e2y3e4 at moscow.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] What I learned (aka thinking v. self-deceipt)
>>Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:38:42 -0900
>>
>>Phil,
>>To lay the egg of the closure on the Bureau of Mines squarely on Bill
>>Clinton is a bit disingenuous to Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich who in
>>his "Contract with America" proposed and carried out the execution of the
>>BOM.  The BOM was killed by the simple act of (HR1977, 104th Congress)
>>non-appropriation budgeting thus eliminating its 2200 employees, eight
>>research centers, and moving the mine health and safety office's to the
>>Department of Energy, Pittsburg.  Unfortunately from there this office has
>>migrated to its final resting place deep within the unproductive bowels of
>>the US Department of Labor with some research activities also found within
>>the Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control
>>and
>>Prevention, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.
>>Naturally, Secretary Babbitt, and President Clinton went along with the
>>plan, but really Phil, you know as well a I do that this was one of Newt's
>>ideas and you really do him disservice by crediting Clinton with it.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>>
>>Here is a partial list of BOM accomplishments:
>>· Technologies that contributed to reduction of fatalities in mine
>>disasters
>>by 97 percent, from 3,000 in 1907 to 98 in 1993.
>>· Self-rescue equipment to allow miners to continue to breathe when caught
>>in underground disasters.
>>· Low-cost methods to extract radium for cancer treatment.
>>· Production processes for titanium, which is critical for aerospace and
>>automobile manufacturing, and zirconium, which is essential to nuclear
>>naval
>>vessels.
>>· Techniques to recover strategic and critical minerals, such as cobalt 
>>and
>>chromium, to reduce U.S. vulnerability to import blockages in 
>>international
>>crises, especially during the Cold War.
>>· Construction of manmade wetlands to limit pollution of waterways by acid
>>mine drainage from nearby mining and mineral-processing operations.
>>· Methods to minimize damage from subsidence, the sinking of the surface 
>>of
>>the earth above underground mines.
>>· Improved recycling of metals, plastic and paper from municipal wastes,
>>including a technology, now used around the world, to recycle municipal
>>solid wastes.
>>· Non-intrusive ways to recover minerals without disturbing the surface of
>>the land.
>>· Use of bacteria to remove arsenic and cyanide from waste waters on 
>>public
>>and private lands.
>>· Uncovering the world's largest deposits of lead and zinc at Alaska's Red
>>Dog Creek, leading to hundreds of millions of dollars in capital
>>investments
>>for mine development.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>>On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet
>>Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:51 AM
>>To: m1e2y3e4 at moscow.com
>>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] What I learned (aka thinking v. self-deceipt)
>>
>>I need to reply to something that is obviously directed at me.  It
>>interests
>>
>>me that Jim does not seem aware that I have been working in the minerals
>>industry, including a not inconsiderable few years spent underground.
>>
>>Jim tells us;
>>
>>"Are you a thinking person? You know, the kind of person that is
>>introspective enough to test his/her own thoughts and prejudices when
>>confronted with a differing truth. Can you really THINK? "
>>
>>So Phil replies;
>>
>>Reading your response below I would have to question your ability to think
>>and not to act in a highly partisan fashion that makes little or no sense
>>when looking at facts objectively.  As per your Emory study, your reward
>>center must be lit up like a Christmass Tree when you ead a Molly Ivins
>>article.
>>
>>Jim writes..
>>
>>"What I learned recently is that two die-hard Republicans on V2020 believe
>>Molly Ivins is an idiot--as is anyone who would even consider her thoughts
>>is an idiot, as evidenced by both their initial comments--"Are you
>>kidding?"
>>
>>and then by their avoidance of addressing the questions Molly asks, and 
>>one
>>of them even  going so far as to put words in her mouth she didn't say and
>>then discounting them."
>>
>>And I reply;
>>
>>Molly is a partisan who does not care for inconvenient truths.  And I do
>>have a name Jim, you can use it.  And you would have nothing to write the
>>rest of the post with had I not address the issue of Molly not dealing 
>>with
>>the facts.  Now care to tell us all what words were placed in Molly Ivins
>>mouth?
>>
>>Jim then presents things he thinks are facts;
>>
>>"Well, here here are the facts about mine safety as I can discern them."
>>
>>I reply;
>>
>>Yes Jim, you have very little knowledge of mines or mine safety, which
>>makes
>>
>>your discernment of the subject pretty weak and based upon research that 
>>is
>>not very detailed.
>>
>>Jim Fact #1
>>
>>"--Under the Bush Administration, since 2001, fines have been routinely
>>dismissed or diminished--one example is $450,000 being reduced to $3000."
>>
>>And the real fact
>>
>>Mine safety violation fines were reduced under Clinton as well  Companies
>>have often pitched such fines to their Senators, the most powerful of whom
>>is Sen. Byrd of West Virginia.  Total fines and violations have not
>>decreased between the two administration  What has changed is that under
>>Clinton, the US Bureau of Mines was destroyed and the $100,000,000 a year
>>in
>>
>>funding for mine safety research was taken with it.  The USBM was the
>>agency
>>
>>which came up with new mine safety devices and also with new mine safety
>>regulations, MSHA was and is solely the enforcement group.  So since 1996,
>>there have been no new ideas in Mine Safety.  St Molly of Fort Worth was
>>the
>>
>>person who lead the charge to do in the US Bureau of Mines, something you
>>seem to have conveniently forgotten.
>>
>>Jim Fact 2
>>
>>"--Under the Bush Administration, the requirement to have two shafts, one
>>for the miners ventilation and one for the coal conveyor has been
>>unenforced."
>>
>>The real facts
>>
>>First, please provide any evidence for your statement there.  The
>>requirement for a separate man way is standard.  Care to provide any proof
>>that MSHA did not enforce that requirement?  If you are referencing the
>>most
>>
>>recent mine fire, the conveyor was in a separate drift and there were
>>numerous other manways.  Frankly I doubt you would know a shaft from an
>>adit
>>
>>from a decline from a drift or a crosscut or be able to tell stopes from
>>longwall cuts.  Further, ventilation is not something that shafts provide,
>>shafts are the means of enterence and exit from a mine working and
>>ventilation is provided most often by ducting in the various adits and
>>shafts of a mine.
>>
>>Jim Facts 3, 4, 5 ect
>>
>>"--That it is considerably cheaper to pay for a dead miner than pay for 
>>all
>>miner's safety. It costs $20 each for a personal pager sized device that
>>can
>>
>>locate a miner in the mine. It is made in Australia, by the way. It costs
>>about $800 for a text messaging device that can allow those outside the
>>mine
>>
>>to communicate with trapped miners. These items were not in use at the 
>>Sago
>>mine. The company owning the Sago Mine paid for the equivalent of pine box
>>funeral and made Cobra insurance payments for, I believe 1 & 1/2 years for
>>the family members of killed miners. The family members also receive
>>$150,000 or $300,000 in life insurance payments. That is it. If you do the
>>math, you can see that it is less costly to pay for killed miners than it
>>is
>>
>>to pay for their safety."
>>
>>Line of sight devices do not work underground.  You can equip every single
>>miner with a pager and it will do absolutely nothing for locating them if
>>they are not within your line of sight.  Transmission of signals
>>communication through hundreds to thousands of feet of solid rock using a
>>tiny device is simply not going to happen.  The US Bureau of Mines was
>>working on devices that could do that kind of job, but the scrapping of 
>>the
>>complete Agency did tend to do in the potential to get devices designed 
>>and
>>tested.
>>
>>As for the Australian device that you reference, it is brand new.  The PED
>>and Tracker system requires more than simply putting a pager on each 
>>miner.
>>
>>Frankly it's a good idea, but it was not even approved for use in the US
>>until about a month prior to the Sago Mine disaster and it is not mandated
>>by MSHA or required by the UMW.  The Australians are just now installing
>>all
>>
>>the equipment as are the New Zealanders and the company involved in the
>>systems design is now looking at selling it into Japan.  Of course the
>>Aussies were just following through with the ideas and the preliminary 
>>work
>>that the US Bureau of Mines had going back in 1993-6 and all of the Sago
>>Miners would have had a US made device had the R & D on it not been wiped
>>out by the Clinton Administration, but who the heck is counting.  You can
>>send a nice thank you letter to Molly Ivins for being such a big supporter
>>of doing in the USBM's on that one.
>>
>>As for the pay outs from the International Coal Group, you are totally all
>>wet.  First, they have a policy for $5,000 in funeral expenses, which is
>>considerably more than a pine box.  Next, in addition to the $300,000 in
>>life insurance, each family is getting over $300,000 from the company for
>>education of their minor children and support for their widows.  The
>>company
>>
>>is also paying the families the lost miner's wages for a two years
>>readjustment period and is honoring the pension clauses that the men had 
>>in
>>their contracts, so that the widows will get a retirement income.  You do
>>the math, because it's considerably more than the sum you suggest.
>>
>>ICG lost 12 men with a lot of experience, had a mine hit by lightening 
>>that
>>blew up, lost infrastructure and a lot of production capacity.  They also
>>sprang a lot of money for the mine rescue operation.  All told, they are
>>out
>>
>>tens of millions of dollars.  Now please try to convince me that they were
>>not interested in seeing the mine operated such that it would not blow up
>>and that they would not lose money by the ream.  Having your mine blown to
>>kingdom come is something any company wants to avoid, yet you are
>>suggesting
>>
>>that somehow they would allow it to be liable to explode at the drop of a
>>hat.  Ideological blinders and your reward sensor hitting overload have to
>>be at play on that one.
>>
>>Jim strange facts;
>>
>>"--Although mine deaths have gone down over 30 years, it needs to be taken
>>into account that the numbers of underground miners has gone done
>>dramatically also, probably by more than 1/2."
>>
>>And this is a bad thing?  If there had been a dramatic increase in Mine
>>related fatalities since the Bush Administration came into office you 
>>might
>>have something to talk about, but the fatality rate has been steady state
>>for close to a decade.  It might have fallen further had the US Bureau of
>>Mines not been wiped off the map.
>>
>>Jim yet stranger factoid;
>>
>>"--That since 2001, federal mine safety regulators emphasized getting 
>>along
>>with the company--not miner safety."
>>
>>Are you totally unaware that this policy was put in place under Clinton?
>>As
>>
>>a matter of fact, the numbers of mine health and safety violations and
>>citations has not decreased, so they are still inspecting as much as under
>>Clinton/Gore, they are simply resolving the issues, working for compliance
>>rather than working to increase the fines.  Is the objective in your eyes
>>to
>>
>>have miners get a safer work place?  Or is it to collect money?  Because
>>collecting lots of fines does not make for a safer work place, but
>>demanding
>>
>>compliance does.
>>
>>And then Jim has this strange "fact";
>>
>>"--That like Katrina, some questionable people, closely related to
>>industry,
>>
>>were in positions affecting mine safety, one of those being an OSHA head."
>>
>>Name one person appointed by Bush who actually has anything to do with 
>>MINE
>>safety that you think is questionable.  You see OSHA has nothing to do 
>>with
>>underground mine safety and not one regulator at MSHA fits your supposed
>>bill of indictment.  It's extremely disingenuous to suggest that an
>>unrelated agency head with no authority for underground mine safety might
>>be
>>
>>conflicted in the Sago Mine disaster.
>>
>>
>>Then Jim Notes;
>>
>>"In other words, Molly Ivins asked perfectly reasonable questions and 
>>these
>>were entirely dismissed by some of you on V2020. I guess your reward 
>>center
>>must be just glowing."
>>
>>I can only reply;
>>
>>No Jim, in other words your knee jerk support for the kinds of falsehoods
>>that Molly spreads has your little pleasure centers humming and lighting 
>>up
>>the boards.
>>
>>And then Jim gives us advice;
>>
>>"By the way, the CSPAN website has the Senate Appropriations Mine Safety
>>subcommittee hearings on it. Do what I did, listen to that and then do a
>>little research on your own. And then think (without the usual emotion)."
>>
>>Good advice, you really should start to do research and not rely on
>>propaganda so much.  Try starting with basic references like what a mine 
>>is
>>and work your way up to reading what MSHA had to actually say about why 
>>the
>>accident occurred.  You might just find out a little something that does
>>not
>>
>>fit into your ideology driven agenda.  In the mean time try not to think
>>you
>>
>>can teach your grandma how to suck eggs.
>>
>>Phil Nisbet
>>
>>
>>
>> >From: Jim Meyer <m1e2y3e4 at moscow.com>
>> >To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >Subject: [Vision2020] What I learned (aka  thinking v. self-deceipt)
>> >Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:27:44 -0800
>> >
>> >Are you a thinking person? You know, the kind of person that is
>> >introspective enough to test his/her own thoughts and prejudices when
>> >confronted with a differing truth. Can you really THINK?
>> >
>> >"Emory University psychologist Drew Weston has found that our brains 
>> >have
>
>>a
>>
>> >convenient way of processing facts that challenge our political
>> >convictions. Using MRI scanners, Weston found that when committed
>> >Republicans and Democrats were confronted with negative information 
>> >about
>> >politicians they supported, the parts of the brain responsible for
>> >reasoning essentially shut down--and "emotion circuits" lit up. As the
>> >subjects dealt with their inner conflict by discounting the new
>> >information, the brains "reward centers" lit up--a response similar to
>>what
>>
>> >addicts experience when they get a fix. Biases can be overcome, Weston
>> >tells The New York Times, but only if people are willing to engage in
>> >"ruthless self-reflection"--a quality , he notes, that's "rarely talked
>> >about in politics." Nor is it likely to be. It's so much more rewarding
>>to
>> >close our minds"  The Week, Feb 3rd 2006.
>> >
>> >What I learned recently is that two die-hard Republicans on V2020 
>> >believe
>> >Molly Ivins is an idiot--as is anyone who would even consider her
>>thoughts
>> >is an idiot, as evidenced by both their initial comments--"Are you
>> >kidding?" and then by their avoidance of addressing the questions Molly
>> >asks, and one of them even  going so far as to put words in her mouth 
>> >she
>> >didn't say and then discounting them.
>> >
>> >Well, here here are the facts about mine safety as I can discern them.
>> >--Under the Bush Administration, since 2001, fines have been routinely
>> >dismissed or diminished--one example is $450,000 being reduced to $3000.
>> >
>> >--Under the Bush Administration, the requirement to have two shafts, one
>> >for the miners ventilation and one for the coal conveyor has been
>> >unenforced.
>> >
>> >--That it is considerably cheaper to pay for a dead miner than pay for
>>all
>> >miner's safety. It costs $20 each for a personal pager sized device that
>> >can locate a miner in the mine. It is made in Australia, by the way. It
>> >costs about $800 for a text messaging device that can allow those 
>> >outside
>> >the mine to communicate with trapped miners. These items were not in use
>>at
>>
>> >the Sago mine. The company owning the Sago Mine paid for the equivalent
>>of
>> >pine box funeral and made Cobra insurance payments for, I believe 1 & 
>> >1/2
>> >years for the family members of killed miners. The family members also
>> >receive $150,000 or $300,000 in life insurance payments. That is it. If
>>you
>>
>> >do the math, you can see that it is less costly to pay for killed miners
>> >than it is to pay for their safety.
>> >
>> >--Although mine deaths have gone down over 30 years, it needs to be 
>> >taken
>> >into account that the numbers of underground miners has gone done
>> >dramatically also, probably by more than 1/2.
>> >
>> >--That since 2001, federal mine safety regulators emphasized getting
>>along
>> >with the company--not miner safety.
>> >
>> >--That like Katrina, some questionable people, closely related to
>>industry,
>>
>> >were in positions affecting mine safety, one of those being an OSHA
>>head..
>> >
>> >In other words, Molly Ivins asked perfectly reasonable questions and
>>these
>> >were entirely dismissed by some of you on V2020. I guess your reward
>>center
>>
>> >must be just glowing.
>> >
>> >By the way, the CSPAN website has the Senate Appropriations Mine Safety
>> >subcommittee hearings on it. Do what I did, listen to that and then do a
>> >little research on your own. And then think (without the usual emotion).
>> >
>> >Jim Meyer
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_____________________________________________________
>> >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>> >communities of the Palouse since 1994. 
>> >http://www.fsr.net
>>
>> >                              mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
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>>
>>_____________________________________________________
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>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net
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