[Vision2020] Re: Wal-Mart - boogie man for a new century
Pat Kraut
pkraut at moscow.com
Fri Jan 27 17:52:37 PST 2006
And Ernst closing had nothing to do with Moscow!
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Wal-Mart - boogie man for a new century
Em, I believe if you look into it, that KB Toys closed shop due to corporate
mismangement and corruption - not to anything that was happening or not
happening here in Moscow. That decision to close was world-wide, from what
I remember. Just like Adelphia being sold was due to its owners cheating
and stealing - not to market pressure.
J :]
>From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>To: <joekc at adelphia.net>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Wal-Mart - boogie man for a new century
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:51:27 -0800
>
>Joe, Your correct that I asked for example of an inferior business besting
>a superior one but that is about all you got right. The way I read your
>response is I don't care how many facts you present, everything I say is
>right and everything you say is wrong. It seems clear to me that any
>further discussion will boil down to my facts vs. your feelings and Lord
>knows I'll run out of facts long before we plumb the depths of your
>feelings. If you would like to bring this discussion out of the realm of
>the 'touchy- feely" hows about you explain where my "analysis" is
>incorrect. I am afraid that what your example "proves" is that KB Toys
>could'nt make it in this market and is gone. I think that you might be
>doing a better job of making my point then I am.
>
>G. Crabtree
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: joekc at adelphia.net
> To: g. crabtree
> Cc: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Wal-Mart - was Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
> Gary,
>
> You asked for an example where an inferior business beat out a superior
>one and I gave one. You might analyze why KB Toys is no longer in Moscow
>differently than I would but the main point is that they are not here any
>longer and the average person has fewer choices because of that. What the
>example proves is that the free market does not always lead to the best
>businesses and the most choices. That claim is nothing but a rhetorical
>slogan.
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" wrote:
>
> =============
> Joe, Excellent try but short of the mark I'm afraid. Stand alone toy
>stores are struggling everywhere for a variety of reasons, not the least of
>them being the internet. Perhaps we should argue against E- commerce?
>Almost all of the complaints that you make would apply, plus no local jobs,
>no local taxes, and all money made goes out of the area. Moscow does not
>have a population large enough to effectively support a toy store. KB toys
>was undergoing a certain amount of financial disorganization at the time
>the local store closed. The latest trends in toys tends toward
>computer/video games which are heavily marketed at other retail outlets
>such as Circuit City, Hastings, Costco, Shopko etc. And last but not least,
>the fact that you are using a subjective, anecdotal example. If it were
>valid then I would think that Hodgins would have been toast long ago. Wal
>Mart sells all the products that they do, (prescriptions, OTC remedies,
>toys, sundries ) and yet they still exist. Might this be attributed to
>superior service, good product selection (toys) and an over all commitment
>to their customers?
>
> I am rather fond of Moscow also. We already have a Wal Mart and I'm
>fairly sure that it isn't killing us. Plucking out of thin air numbers like
>98% 2% and attaching them to a poison pill arguments is pure sophistry.
>
> Try agin?
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: joekc at adelphia.net
> To: g. crabtree
> Cc: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 AM
> Subject: Wal-Mart - was Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
> Gary,
>
> I didn't think Mr. Schou's analogy blew but here is a real world example
>of an inferior business beating out a superior competitor. The mall used to
>have a toy store: Kay-Be Toys, or something like that. I went there
>frequently when my son was younger and my wife let me spoil him more.
>Wal-Mart drove Kay-Bee Toys out of business. Kay-Be Toys had a far superior
>selection of toys and was by any set of standards a better toy store than
>Wal-Mart. (Neither are as good as Hodgins Drug Store but that's another
>issue.) What happened was that kids go to toy stores with their parents but
>parents buy other things besides toys, things that are not sold at Kay-Be
>Toys. In short, Wal-Mart offers low-cost and convenience. That is it. It is
>'superior' to other stores for these two reasons only. But that is enough
>to drive out some businesses. Once those businsesses leave, the folks in
>Moscow will have fewer choices, not more choices.
>
> You note that "many communities that are co-existing with the worlds
>largest retailer to the betterment of its residents." But many are not. It
>was noted in Tom Trail's post that two communities like ours were "sucked
>dry" after a Super Wal-Mart moved in. For the sake of argument suppose that
>98 communities like ours were not sucked dry. Would you take a pill that
>had only a 2% chance of killing you if you didn't need it and you were
>getting along fine without it? I don't think so. I love Moscow and low-cost
>and convenience are not enough reason for me to risk sucking it dry.
>
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
>
>
> ---- "g. crabtree" wrote:
>
> =============
> Mr. Schou, Your analogy blows. It seems clear to me that you have very
> little understanding of how an 'all in" bet works but rather than
>educate
> you on the finer points of poker allow me to propose an analogy of my
>own. A
> player comes to the game and bluffs outrageously each and every hand.
>Soon,
> his fellow gamblers see him for what he is and call him. His weak hands
>are
> revealed, his resources dwindle and very soon he is out of the game.
>
> This appears to be the tactic of the common garden variety wal-mart
> opponent. Exclaim loudly how WM will be the ruination of civilization
>and
> will bring about the heat death of the universe and so on. When folks
>see
> that there are many communities that are co-existing with the worlds
>largest
> retailer to the betterment of its residents our protester is revealed as
>at
> best, wrong and at worst, a dupe.
>
> Getting back to the original heart of the discussion, hows about some
>real
> world examples of inferior business' beating out superior competitors.
>I'll
> be waiting, watching the pages of my calendar flit by.
>
> gc
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andreas Schou"
> To: "g. crabtree"
> Cc: ;
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
> >You are right about my confidence in a free market. Perhaps you could
>give
> >me a few examples where an inferior business beat out a superior one.
>
> Let me use a poker analogy. If I had a trillion dollars, played poker
> for a living, and won every poker game I played by going "all in" on
> every hand, would I be the best poker player that ever lived? Hint:
> no, I would not.
>
> This is Wal*Mart's business model: saturate the market, make
> monopsonic agreements with suppliers, and run as thin a margin as
> possible in new stores until all the other business goes under. Is
> this a good business strategy? Yes. Does it contribute to market
> efficiency -- which is generally how a "superior business" is
> understood to work? No. It does not.
>
> -- ACS
>
>
>
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