[Vision2020] Re: Wal-Mart - boogie man for a new century

J Ford privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Fri Jan 27 12:17:44 PST 2006


Em, I believe if you look into it, that KB Toys closed shop due to corporate 
mismangement and corruption - not to anything that was happening or not 
happening here in Moscow.  That decision to close was world-wide, from what 
I remember.  Just like Adelphia being sold was due to its owners cheating 
and stealing - not to market pressure.

J  :]




>From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>To: <joekc at adelphia.net>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Wal-Mart - boogie man for a new century
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:51:27 -0800
>
>Joe, Your correct that I asked for example of an inferior business besting 
>a superior one but that is about all you got right. The way I read your 
>response is I don't care how many facts you present, everything I say is 
>right and everything you say is wrong.  It seems clear to me that any 
>further discussion will boil down to my facts vs. your feelings and Lord 
>knows I'll run out of facts long before we plumb the depths of your 
>feelings. If you would like to bring this discussion out of the realm of 
>the 'touchy- feely" hows about you explain where my "analysis" is 
>incorrect. I am afraid that  what your example "proves" is that KB Toys 
>could'nt make it in this market and is gone. I think that you might be 
>doing a better job of making my point then I am.
>
>G. Crabtree
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: joekc at adelphia.net
>   To: g. crabtree
>   Cc: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com
>   Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:36 AM
>   Subject: Re: Wal-Mart - was Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
>   Gary,
>
>   You asked for an example where an inferior business beat out a superior 
>one and I gave one. You might analyze why KB Toys is no longer in Moscow 
>differently than I would but the main point is that they are not here any 
>longer and the average person has fewer choices because of that. What the 
>example proves is that the free market does not always lead to the best 
>businesses and the most choices. That claim is nothing but a rhetorical 
>slogan.
>   --
>   Joe Campbell
>
>   ---- "g. crabtree" wrote:
>
>   =============
>   Joe, Excellent try but short of the mark I'm afraid. Stand alone toy 
>stores are struggling everywhere for a variety of reasons, not the least of 
>them being the internet. Perhaps we should argue against E- commerce? 
>Almost all of the complaints that you make would apply, plus no local jobs, 
>no local taxes, and all money made goes out of the area. Moscow does not 
>have a population large enough to effectively support a toy store. KB toys 
>was undergoing a certain amount of financial disorganization at the time 
>the local store closed. The latest trends in toys tends toward 
>computer/video games which are heavily marketed at other retail outlets 
>such as Circuit City, Hastings, Costco, Shopko etc. And last but not least, 
>the fact that you are using a subjective, anecdotal example. If it were 
>valid then I would think that Hodgins would have been toast long ago. Wal 
>Mart sells all the products that they do, (prescriptions, OTC remedies, 
>toys, sundries ) and yet they still exist. Might this be attributed to 
>superior service, good product selection (toys) and an over all commitment 
>to their customers?
>
>   I am rather fond of Moscow also. We already have a Wal Mart and I'm 
>fairly sure that it isn't killing us. Plucking out of thin air numbers like 
>98% 2% and attaching them to a poison pill arguments is pure sophistry.
>
>   Try agin?
>   Gary
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: joekc at adelphia.net
>   To: g. crabtree
>   Cc: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com
>   Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 AM
>   Subject: Wal-Mart - was Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
>   Gary,
>
>   I didn't think Mr. Schou's analogy blew but here is a real world example 
>of an inferior business beating out a superior competitor. The mall used to 
>have a toy store: Kay-Be Toys, or something like that. I went there 
>frequently when my son was younger and my wife let me spoil him more. 
>Wal-Mart drove Kay-Bee Toys out of business. Kay-Be Toys had a far superior 
>selection of toys and was by any set of standards a better toy store than 
>Wal-Mart. (Neither are as good as Hodgins Drug Store but that's another 
>issue.) What happened was that kids go to toy stores with their parents but 
>parents buy other things besides toys, things that are not sold at Kay-Be 
>Toys. In short, Wal-Mart offers low-cost and convenience. That is it. It is 
>'superior' to other stores for these two reasons only. But that is enough 
>to drive out some businesses. Once those businsesses leave, the folks in 
>Moscow will have fewer choices, not more choices.
>
>   You note that "many communities that are co-existing with the worlds 
>largest retailer to the betterment of its residents." But many are not. It 
>was noted in Tom Trail's post that two communities like ours were "sucked 
>dry" after a Super Wal-Mart moved in. For the sake of argument suppose that 
>98 communities like ours were not sucked dry. Would you take a pill that 
>had only a 2% chance of killing you if you didn't need it and you were 
>getting along fine without it? I don't think so. I love Moscow and low-cost 
>and convenience are not enough reason for me to risk sucking it dry.
>
>
>   --
>   Joe Campbell
>
>
>
>   ---- "g. crabtree" wrote:
>
>   =============
>   Mr. Schou, Your analogy blows. It seems clear to me that you have very
>   little understanding of how an 'all in" bet works but rather than 
>educate
>   you on the finer points of poker allow me to propose an analogy of my 
>own. A
>   player comes to the game and bluffs outrageously each and every hand. 
>Soon,
>   his fellow gamblers see him for what he is and call him. His weak hands 
>are
>   revealed, his resources dwindle and very soon he is out of the game.
>
>   This appears to be the tactic of the common garden variety wal-mart
>   opponent. Exclaim loudly how WM will be the ruination of civilization 
>and
>   will bring about the heat death of the universe and so on. When folks 
>see
>   that there are many communities that are co-existing with the worlds 
>largest
>   retailer to the betterment of its residents our protester is revealed as 
>at
>   best, wrong and at worst, a dupe.
>
>   Getting back to the original heart of the discussion, hows about some 
>real
>   world examples of inferior business' beating out superior competitors. 
>I'll
>   be waiting, watching the pages of my calendar flit by.
>
>   gc
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Andreas Schou"
>   To: "g. crabtree"
>   Cc: ;
>   Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:48 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
>   >You are right about my confidence in a free market. Perhaps you could 
>give
>   >me a few examples where an inferior business beat out a superior one.
>
>   Let me use a poker analogy. If I had a trillion dollars, played poker
>   for a living, and won every poker game I played by going "all in" on
>   every hand, would I be the best poker player that ever lived? Hint:
>   no, I would not.
>
>   This is Wal*Mart's business model: saturate the market, make
>   monopsonic agreements with suppliers, and run as thin a margin as
>   possible in new stores until all the other business goes under. Is
>   this a good business strategy? Yes. Does it contribute to market
>   efficiency -- which is generally how a "superior business" is
>   understood to work? No. It does not.
>
>   -- ACS
>
>
>


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