[Vision2020] Re: Wal-Mart - boogie man for a new century

Fri Jan 27 14:01:51 PST 2006

I hate to tell you, J, but you cannot 'look up' causal relations of any kind, whether it be in economics or in physics. What you can do is look up facts and then try to infer causal relations from them. Here I think that the physicists have a huge advantage over the economists.
Also, how could mismangement and corruption have anything to do with why KB Toys closed the shop in Moscow and not, say, Spokane? Clearly performance in the local market had something to do with it, no? I would bet that KB Toys has given up on small markets, like ours, which have Wal-Marts. This is no doubt a good decision on their part. But it has the effect of reducing the choices of folks in those markets. Ergo, free market pressures do not always increase consumer choice. That is all I've been trying to say.
--
Joe Campbell

---- J Ford wrote:

=============
Em, I believe if you look into it, that KB Toys closed shop due to corporate
mismangement and corruption - not to anything that was happening or not
happening here in Moscow. That decision to close was world-wide, from what
I remember. Just like Adelphia being sold was due to its owners cheating
and stealing - not to market pressure.

J :]

>From: "g. crabtree" 
>To: 
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Wal-Mart - boogie man for a new century
>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:51:27 -0800
>
>Joe, Your correct that I asked for example of an inferior business besting
>a superior one but that is about all you got right. The way I read your
>response is I don't care how many facts you present, everything I say is
>right and everything you say is wrong. It seems clear to me that any
>further discussion will boil down to my facts vs. your feelings and Lord
>knows I'll run out of facts long before we plumb the depths of your
>feelings. If you would like to bring this discussion out of the realm of
>the 'touchy- feely" hows about you explain where my "analysis" is
>incorrect. I am afraid that what your example "proves" is that KB Toys
>could'nt make it in this market and is gone. I think that you might be
>doing a better job of making my point then I am.
>
>G. Crabtree
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: joekc at adelphia.net
>To: g. crabtree
>Cc: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com
>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:36 AM
>Subject: Re: Wal-Mart - was Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
>Gary,
>
>You asked for an example where an inferior business beat out a superior
>one and I gave one. You might analyze why KB Toys is no longer in Moscow
>differently than I would but the main point is that they are not here any
>longer and the average person has fewer choices because of that. What the
>example proves is that the free market does not always lead to the best
>businesses and the most choices. That claim is nothing but a rhetorical
>slogan.
>--
>Joe Campbell
>
>---- "g. crabtree" wrote:
>
>=============
>Joe, Excellent try but short of the mark I'm afraid. Stand alone toy
>stores are struggling everywhere for a variety of reasons, not the least of
>them being the internet. Perhaps we should argue against E- commerce?
>Almost all of the complaints that you make would apply, plus no local jobs,
>no local taxes, and all money made goes out of the area. Moscow does not
>have a population large enough to effectively support a toy store. KB toys
>was undergoing a certain amount of financial disorganization at the time
>the local store closed. The latest trends in toys tends toward
>computer/video games which are heavily marketed at other retail outlets
>such as Circuit City, Hastings, Costco, Shopko etc. And last but not least,
>the fact that you are using a subjective, anecdotal example. If it were
>valid then I would think that Hodgins would have been toast long ago. Wal
>Mart sells all the products that they do, (prescriptions, OTC remedies,
>toys, sundries ) and yet they still exist. Might this be attributed to
>superior service, good product selection (toys) and an over all commitment
>to their customers?
>
>I am rather fond of Moscow also. We already have a Wal Mart and I'm
>fairly sure that it isn't killing us. Plucking out of thin air numbers like
>98% 2% and attaching them to a poison pill arguments is pure sophistry.
>
>Try agin?
>Gary
>----- Original Message -----
>From: joekc at adelphia.net
>To: g. crabtree
>Cc: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 at moscow.com
>Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 AM
>Subject: Wal-Mart - was Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
>Gary,
>
>I didn't think Mr. Schou's analogy blew but here is a real world example
>of an inferior business beating out a superior competitor. The mall used to
>have a toy store: Kay-Be Toys, or something like that. I went there
>frequently when my son was younger and my wife let me spoil him more.
>Wal-Mart drove Kay-Bee Toys out of business. Kay-Be Toys had a far superior
>selection of toys and was by any set of standards a better toy store than
>Wal-Mart. (Neither are as good as Hodgins Drug Store but that's another
>issue.) What happened was that kids go to toy stores with their parents but
>parents buy other things besides toys, things that are not sold at Kay-Be
>Toys. In short, Wal-Mart offers low-cost and convenience. That is it. It is
>'superior' to other stores for these two reasons only. But that is enough
>to drive out some businesses. Once those businsesses leave, the folks in
>Moscow will have fewer choices, not more choices.
>
>You note that "many communities that are co-existing with the worlds
>largest retailer to the betterment of its residents." But many are not. It
>was noted in Tom Trail's post that two communities like ours were "sucked
>dry" after a Super Wal-Mart moved in. For the sake of argument suppose that
>98 communities like ours were not sucked dry. Would you take a pill that
>had only a 2% chance of killing you if you didn't need it and you were
>getting along fine without it? I don't think so. I love Moscow and low-cost
>and convenience are not enough reason for me to risk sucking it dry.
>
>
>--
>Joe Campbell
>
>
>
>---- "g. crabtree" wrote:
>
>=============
>Mr. Schou, Your analogy blows. It seems clear to me that you have very
>little understanding of how an 'all in" bet works but rather than
>educate
>you on the finer points of poker allow me to propose an analogy of my
>own. A
>player comes to the game and bluffs outrageously each and every hand.
>Soon,
>his fellow gamblers see him for what he is and call him. His weak hands
>are
>revealed, his resources dwindle and very soon he is out of the game.
>
>This appears to be the tactic of the common garden variety wal-mart
>opponent. Exclaim loudly how WM will be the ruination of civilization
>and
>will bring about the heat death of the universe and so on. When folks
>see
>that there are many communities that are co-existing with the worlds
>largest
>retailer to the betterment of its residents our protester is revealed as
>at
>best, wrong and at worst, a dupe.
>
>Getting back to the original heart of the discussion, hows about some
>real
>world examples of inferior business' beating out superior competitors.
>I'll
>be waiting, watching the pages of my calendar flit by.
>
>gc
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Andreas Schou"
>To: "g. crabtree"
>Cc: ;
>Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doug Jones Says It Clearly
>
>
>>You are right about my confidence in a free market. Perhaps you could
>give
>>me a few examples where an inferior business beat out a superior one.
>
>Let me use a poker analogy. If I had a trillion dollars, played poker
>for a living, and won every poker game I played by going "all in" on
>every hand, would I be the best poker player that ever lived? Hint:
>no, I would not.
>
>This is Wal*Mart's business model: saturate the market, make
>monopsonic agreements with suppliers, and run as thin a margin as
>possible in new stores until all the other business goes under. Is
>this a good business strategy? Yes. Does it contribute to market
>efficiency -- which is generally how a "superior business" is
>understood to work? No. It does not.
>
>-- ACS
>
>
>

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