[Vision2020] The pledge Controversy

lfalen lfalen at turbonet.com
Fri Jan 27 13:42:20 PST 2006


Chis
You sum it all up very nicely.

Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Chris Storhok cstorhok at co.fairbanks.ak.us
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:46:56 -0800
To: "'Phil Nisbet'" pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy

> Phil,
> The symbolism of the pledge took on a whole new meaning to me at 7:00pm on
> September 11, 2001.  I had to attend a Deary City Council meeting that night
> to discuss preliminary plans to convert the old Lions Hall and nearby
> fertilizer facility into a community center.  There was talk all day of
> canceling the meeting in light of earlier events; however, Mayor Foster
> would have none of that.  The city hall was filled (not hard to do in Deary
> but considering that day it was still a nice sight) as the Mayor, the City
> council, and all of us in the audience stood and recited the pledge.  There
> was not a dry eye in the place but still government and life went on. 
> 
> The pledge may be a rote phrase to many, it may be offensive to others, it
> was written by a socialist, it has been battered around, beaten, cursed,
> ignored, and pronounced antiquated; however, in the end it is as you say, a
> symbol that unites us to serve a common cause, defense of liberty and the
> defense of our nation.   It is not perfect, is there anything earthly that
> is?  It is offensive to somebody, is there anything that is not?  It is
> though a powerful symbol of our nation.  It is the only statement of
> allegiance and commitment to our nation that most Americans ever state
> (since a vast majority of Americans do not serve in the military).  
> 
> Of any time I have ever said the pledge, that night in Deary less than five
> years ago was one of the most meaningful and oddly enough, wonderful,
> experiences in government service I have ever had.  I only hope that those
> on this list who condemn repetition of that simple statement can remember
> back those few years ago to your feelings of that day, and realize that in
> the end all we really can do is to unite ourselves to move our imperfect
> experiment in governance forward to succeeding generations.
> 
> Chris Storhok
>       
> 
> 
>   
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:08 AM
> To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
> 
> J
> 
> Morning Formation is hugely rich in symbolism.  You did not need to say a 
> pledge because the other symbolic things were there in spades.
> 
> Then there is also the larger formation parades to add to your sense of 
> place and you also have reveille and recall, stop and turn to the location 
> of the flag going up or down and salute.  The company guidon, the battalion 
> and regimental colors, the ordering of events. . .
> 
> So the reminders of your place within the unit and its function were 
> constant.
> 
> Verwen the pay this bill and do not pay that one that form the basis of most
> 
> council or commission meetings, its nice to think that their is some call to
> 
> civic duty.  That is what the people who want the pledge are looking for, a 
> symbolism that calls the proceeding into its place.
> 
> Can a unit that does not make formation ve effective in combat?  Sure, but 
> its more likely to be a unit through the sense that formation brings.  Even 
> with Formations and the rest that unit can still break down and members of 
> it can and do screw the pooch, but its a form that tends to assist most of 
> us.
> 
> So, the pledge is not the only thing that can add that form and symbolism to
> 
> council meetings, but it is one of the possible forms.  Just like formation 
> telling a troop that he now has to put aside his persnal desires to act as a
> 
> unit, some opening form at the start of a council meeting is there to give 
> that council the sense that they now are to put aside their personal agendas
> 
> and act as the unit charged with overseeing the public weal for the people 
> who elected them.
> 
> Lacking such a symbol will not end good government any more than lack of a 
> formation will make a fighting unit unable to fight, but time has told us 
> that some forms increase the odds of better performance.  Pick your symbol, 
> but remember that for many the Pledge is one of the more powerful.
> 
> Phil Nisbet
> 
> 
> 
> >From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> >To: pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
> >Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:30:33 -0800
> >
> >While I agree with most of what you say, I must add that those that are 
> >gripping the loudest about the pledge not being said (a) do not themselves 
> >make that kind of demand of themselves; (b) do not attend the majority of 
> >the meetings held at City Hall; (c) gripe because that is what they do 
> >best.
> >
> >I personally do not see the need to open each and every single meeting with
> 
> >the pledge; just like I did not understand us having to say it EVERY single
> 
> >day at school.  As I have stated before and others have stated, saying it 
> >does NOT in any way, shape or form guarantee that the person will follow 
> >the pledge, adhere to its standards, continue to be accountable to the 
> >citizens of this town/country or even believe in what it says.
> >
> >I like Nancy's idea of opening with some kind of statement to set the tone,
> 
> >but if the Council didn't do that I would not be offended or hurt or feel 
> >like they were not being loyal to this country or city.
> >
> >During my time in the military, when we would fall in, go through 
> >inspection, report for duty, we did not say the pledge or sing the anthem.
> 
> >That did not make us any less loyal or dutiful to this country or the 
> >citizens.
> >
> >Seriously, where were the people four years ago when the pledge or opening 
> >statements were not even thought of being done?  Why this fuss now?  I 
> >think a mole hill is being made into a mountain simply for joy of doing so 
> >by those doing it.
> >
> >My thoughts - take them for what they're worth.
> >
> >J  :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
> >>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>Subject: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy
> >>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:41:22 -0800
> >>
> >>I had a say earlier and figured that it was sufficient to the day, but the
> 
> >>huge volume of traffic on this issue has me scratching my head.
> >>
> >>There are some with honest opinions here on both sides.  Chas, for an 
> >>example, is a non-conformist and hates all things related to pledges.  His
> 
> >>opinion on the subject and his feelings are valid and need to be 
> >>respected.  Similarly, those who want the pledge said have solid feelings 
> >>on the subject and valid desires to see the pledge said as a symbol of 
> >>their own love of country and they deserve as much respect as Chas does.
> >>
> >>One of the people I had dinner with last night had something very valid to
> 
> >>say.  He noted that at his age he still tripped over the portion of the 
> >>pledge that was added in the 1950's and that he had an easier time of it 
> >>when it was not there.  He still preferred to have some sort of a 
> >>patriotic opening to a governmental proceeding.
> >>
> >>Nancy says that she wants to vary things as opening statements before the 
> >>meeting to set the tone.  I would say that is fine, one meeting the 
> >>pledge, the next meeting the national anthem, the next a brief patriotic 
> >>poem, what ever.  What ever the pick for opening, pledge or song or poem 
> >>or speech portion, it needs to reflect civic participation in the great 
> >>American political process.
> >>
> >>This need not have been a controversy had this idea been circulated in the
> 
> >>first place.  If at the first meeting it had been made clear that that was
> 
> >>the plan, I do not see the kind of concerns that have been aired.  The 
> >>problem occurs when actions to make changes are made without the public 
> >>being informed, in effect, the public having to discover by word of mouth 
> >>and Listserver that a change has happened without their knowledge.
> >>
> >>So perhaps we can get Nancy to post her ideas and she can also inform the 
> >>papers with a list of the openings she intends and the controversy can die
> 
> >>down.  Heck, she can open a suggestion box for citizen preferred openings 
> >>to council meetings and then everybody can get a crack at picking one.
> >>
> >>I nominate,"I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world" 
> >>Socrates, in hopes of getting Chas and his kindred spirits into the idea.
> >>
> >>Phil Nisbet
> >>
> >>PS  On the other hand there have been one heck of a lot of not very honest
> 
> >>answers on this subject.  Those of you who expressed things not your own 
> >>opinion just to make political hay know who you are and that is from all 
> >>sides.  Its exceptionally bad when an official plays finger pointing as if
> 
> >>that offical was not involved.
> >>
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