[Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge

Sun Jan 22 12:53:06 PST 2006

Tom I

Which part of my statement that the citizens have no right to demand thought 
conformity did you fail to understand?  I stated it several time.

But while the citizens are not allowed to require thought conformity of 
their council, they can un-elect that council.  It’s called democracy.  So 
yes Tom, the mass does have a right to manipulate the people they pick, by 
letting them know that their calls can and will result in either retention 
in office or removal from it.

I have an extremely hard time trying to figure the instant change over from 
the last council to this one.  In the last council, the same people who seem 
to be insisting that the council can disregard the will of the people while 
they serve were insisting that the council had to hear the voice of the 
citizens.  From wanting open government, they seem to be calling for a 
process that does not require the council to tell us anything the council 
does not deem important.

How many seconds of time does it take for council members to tell us why 
they wish to alter the way meetings are conducted?  John took the time to 
give us two emails on the subject, something that says that he at least 
believes in open government.  So why do we have a whole lot of people lined 
up trying to insist that the rest of the council has no need to do the same? 
  What about the council telling us the reasons they decide things bothers 
them so much?

Phil Nisbet

>From: Tom Ivie <the_ivies3 at yahoo.com>
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] City Council and the Pledge
>Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:59:21 -0800 (PST)
>
>Whoa!!  Back the truck up.  This would suggest that
>our representative government was nothing more than a
>bunch of puppets being manipulated by the masses.
>More the case than not, the representatives are just
>that; representatives.  They are elected not because
>they can be manipulated by puppeteers but because they
>actually represent the views and ideologies (on one
>level or another) of those that elected them.
>
>I am thinking that the Mayor sets the agenda with a
>little help from staff.  This does not require a vote
>of Council or a public meeting.  It is a matter of
>procedure.  Furthermore, the Mayor may amend the
>agenda or the Council can vote to add something to it.
>  The Mayor can also set the order of the agenda.  I'll
>bet that if a Pledge were to be stated at the end of a
>meeting there would also be people upset about that.
>
>The fact of the matter is that a pledge is not
>required by the Code (City, County, or State).  That
>being said, I don't mind doing it.  But I don't think
>it makes a meeting any less official by not saying it.
>  I look at it this way; some people say a prayer
>before they eat a meal and others do not.  Just
>because you may not, does not mean you aren't thankful
>for that meal whether you are Jewish, Christian,
>Muslim, Agnostic, etc.  If the pledge is not said,
>that does not mean that anyone in that room is or is
>not patriotic. Now the national anthem is a whole
>other story!  A sporting event is just not official
>unless the anthem is played before a game.  But, for
>me, the same can be said of singing "Take me out to
>the ball game" at any baseball game.
>
>--- Phil Nisbet <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Chas,
> >
> > You asked;
> >
> > >So, if I am to understand this correctly... you
> > feel that whether city
> > >council members choose to say the the pledge or not
> > is your business?
> > >If this is so, then I'm assuming it is because that
> > you feel in some
> > >way it is within your power to grant or deny them
> > permission.  Just
> > >because you elected them doesn't mean you get to
> > choose their personal
> > >beliefs.
> > >
> >
> > No, we do not have the right to decide on the
> > personal preferences of
> > Council Members, but we do have the right to have a
> > government take actions
> > that the people wish them to.  So if the people of
> > the City of Moscow want
> > their public meetings opened with a chorus of "Give
> > me that old time rock
> > and roll", council members do not get an instant
> > right to decide differently
> > and still expect to be re-elected to office.
> >
> > Key here is the members reasons for actions,
> > something that as elected
> > officials they really do have to make clear to the
> > people who are the real
> > basis of government.  If the majority think their
> > reasons are good, then
> > they end up retained, if not we end up with a new
> > batch.
> >
> > And if the calls they make are totally out of sync
> > with the wishes of the
> > citizens, then a recall election can indeed be
> > called.  I think that if they
> > voted to start meetings with a chorus of the Horst
> > Wessel Lied, I would be
> > highly inclined to see the council recalled, just as
> > a single good example.
> > I woud hope that you would join in such a recall if
> > Nazi Marching songs
> > become the order of the day to start council
> > sessions.
> >
> > Phil Nisbet
> >
> >
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