[Vision2020] on women, the Bible, and battles

Tue Jan 17 08:09:39 PST 2006

Excellent points, of course!  (Let's remember that she was anticipating the 
scorn of Barak's contemporaries, not affirming it, when she pointed out that 
they would note that his victory was obtained by a woman).

Then we can discuss Phoebe, Lydia, Chloe, Priscilla, Junia, Joanna, Mary -- 
the first witness to the resurrection -- and the woman at the well.  And, of 
course, we'd then move on to the countless biographies of single women who 
preached the word in some of the most inhospitable places on the  map and 
continue to do so 'til this day.  We could end -- but God won't, I know -- 
with my friend Lupita, a 45-year-old single woman, who is the most Godly, 
humble, powerful preacher I've ever met.  She directed a Bible college in 
Coahuila, Mexico, for 15 years, ministered throughout northern Mexico as a 
pastor and teacher, and now works with Spanish-speaking immigrants in Spain.

She doesn't have a husband.  And yet she lacks nothing.

She is my dear friend and my inspiration.  I thank God she never wanted to 
become a fighter pilot, but I thank him especially that no one on this earth 
denied her her heart's desire -- to live the Gospel, speaking it with every 
breath, every word, and every movement of her hands.

Lupita's sister, Lucy, died yesterday after a two-year battle against 
cancer.  She fought harder than any fighter pilot, male or female, every 
has.  Most women do.   Perhaps I'm just feeling melancholy; Lucy was my 
friend as well, and I'm grieving.  But I'll see Lucy again.  And when I do, 
it won't be because of the action or affirmation of any man in the world, 
except for the Man Christ Jesus, in whom I live and move and have my being.

keely

From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
To: joanopyr at earthlink.net
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] what the Bible really teaches (was Douglas 
Wilsononwomen)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:08:59 -0800

Hey Joan

You and keely are missing the best question.  If women are not able or are 
barred from action, what is Deborah doing being a Judge, a prophet and for 
that matter what the heck is she doing being a General of the Armies?  Why 
would G-d give her victory on Tabor of he was dead set against women in such 
roles?

Then from the same section, how do you like Jael?  Nothing like a tent peg 
to the brain pan to end a military career.  Point being that she is praised 
for doing what she could to insure victory.

Obviously there was no consideration that a woman's place was in the home if 
Ephrim could chose as its person to judge the tribal unit was a woman.  
Also, the poem "The Song of Deborah", the oldest known Hebrew poetry and one 
of the oldest portions of Tanahk makes Deborah one of the oldest writers of 
scripture.

If Deborah's management was criticalally wrong, why did G-d grant fourty 
years of peace following her winning of the battle?

Phil Nisbet

>From: Joan Opyr <joanopyr at earthlink.net>
>To: Vision2020 Moscow <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] what the Bible really teaches (was Douglas Wilson 
>onwomen)
>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:01:44 -0800
>
>
>On 14 Jan 2006, at 23:05, keely emerinemix wrote:
>
>>If we take Jesus at his word and follow his example, we'll see that sexism 
>>in the church is even worse than sexism outside of it, because it purports 
>>to have the stamp of approval of the One who proclaimed through Paul that 
>>"there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male 
>>nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."  (Gal. 3:28)  Christ 
>>came to reverse the effects of the Fall, not to make sure that its more 
>>odious manifestations continue in robust display.  I'm sure many Kirk 
>>women disagree with me, and that's fine.  But freedom in Christ can never 
>>be diminished by the men around us, and those men who attempt to curtail 
>>the abundant life of women in Christ will have much to answer for.
>
>Keely is again spot on.  According to Genesis 3:16, "To the woman, He said, 
>'I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing, in pain you shall 
>bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he 
>will rule over you.'"  Woman's submission to man is a punishment for 
>Original Sin.  What it is not is the divine ideal (Eden), and it is not a 
>Biblical reflection of biological determinism.  To answer Michael's 
>observation re: Doug's pilot parable, I would suggest that biological 
>determinism is not a road any Christian theologian really wants to travel.  
>How does the praying mantis fit into the divine order?  After mating, the 
>male makes a lovely dinner for the female  -- husband a la mode.  And among 
>arachnids?  Devouring hubby is not uncommon.  Drones serve no purpose 
>beyond mating; when they're done, their wings fall off and they die.  In 
>prides of lions, flocks of chickens, herds of deer -- only one male is 
>required.  I have ten happy hens and two roosters.  The thing is, I don't 
>need two roosters, so guess who's coming to dinner?  Foghorn Leghorn.
>
>Further, if the natural world reflects God's will, then how does Michael 
>(or, for that matter, Doug) explain the more than 300 species that engage 
>in homosexual behavior?  From penguins to dolphins to bonobo monkeys, 
>homosexual behavior is quite common.  In nature, homosexual behavior is 
>good, clean fun.  Brokeback Mountain?  Try Brokeback Zoo.
>
>[This might sound odd coming from a lesbian, but I don't think human males 
>are superfluous to requirements.  I like men; I have many, many male 
>friends with whom I enjoy spending time -- time free of any silly 
>flirtations, sexual tension, or wifely jealousy.  It's great!  I do believe 
>that I like men, genuinely like them, better than do many straight married 
>women.  Men are good fun, and I've found that they're usually willing to 
>lend you their truck or their chain-saw or their snow-blower.  Yay men!  
>And yay butch lesbians!]
>
>To argue that women are biologically (or Biblically) unfit for certain jobs 
>like fighter pilot -- well, nonsense.  Sexual dimorphism has very little 
>meaning in a modern technological society.  No man, I don't care how big or 
>macho he is, has ever been a match hand-to-paw for a polar bear, a tiger, 
>or even a determined Doberman.  Why is humankind on top of the food chain?  
>Because we're smart; because we're big-brained tool users, male and female 
>alike.  To limit just over half of your population to kinder, kirke, kuche 
>simply because they are born female (and because you are a misogynist) is 
>not only a waste, it's an abomination.
>
>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
>www.joanopyr.com
>
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