[Vision2020] Phil, Molly Ivins, and the meaning of evil

Jim Meyer m1e2y3e4 at moscow.com
Mon Jan 16 23:10:42 PST 2006


Phil,
You seem like a reasonable fellow, perhaps a bit to the right of main 
stream, but you seem to take your facts seriously and I see that you 
take pains to be what you would consider centrist. Maybe you are even 
planning on running for office as I gather from the way you go out of 
your way to be political by attempting to withhold blame from all 
participants--government, industry and workers. An admirable trait 
really--up to a point--better to solve a problem than scapegoat someone. 
We probably have large areas of agreement. For instance, I think you and 
I would agree that tree spikers are criminals; we would probably agree 
about a great many things. However, your demonizing and misunderstanding 
of Molly Ivin's column bothers me. Not so much because it is you 
personally, but because you represent a whole group, even a generation, 
of fairly well informed people--likable, reasonable people who have 
never seen in their lifetimes, and who can't accept, and won't believe, 
and who will intentionally engage in self-deceit in order to avoid the 
recognition that our current federal government is dangerously inept and 
that it came into office on the premise, promise, and delivery of a 
climate of corruption.

Well, I say to you, and others like you, it is time to wake up. Time to 
see the facts as they really are. Time to listen, in spite of your 
prejudices. Time to research. Time to get your information from other 
places besides the propaganda machine.Time to realize that mere dissent 
does not mean your can write someone off as a radical tree hugger, as 
you have done with Molly Ivins (or unpatriotic). Time to realize that 
people can be wrong on many points but dead on right on others.

As was pointed out already on V2020, you comments do not actually 
address what Molly Ivins said, even when you had a chance to follow up 
(but your comments do show your prejudice). I imagine you have heard the 
saying "the only good tree is stump?" What Molly Ivins said, but perhaps 
not so clearly to the uninformed or to the ostriches among us, was that 
the federal government, through a regulatory climate that could be best 
characterized as "the only good regulation is none at all" is probably 
largely responsible for mining tragedy that is the subject of our 
current discussion. Molly Ivins merely asks, what oversight wasn't done? 
What oversight wasn't done due to appointing the fox to guard the 
henhouse? Due to budget cuts? Was an incompetent political appointee 
responsible? Was there direction from the executive branch to minimize 
inspections? Certainly in my area of expertise--pharmacy--such questions 
are entirely reasonable to ask and the answers are troubling. Without 
going into detail, there is every reason to believe that the FDA has not 
been doing as good a job as they should have, for many of the reasons I 
mention. There are numerous examples in all areas of government, Molly 
Ivins mentions Katrina. Prior to Katrina, you don't seriously think that 
the best and most qualified person was chosen to head FEMA, do you?

Phil, we live in dangerous times. It scares me that a whole generation 
denies the truth, and worse yet also doesn't even bother to look for it. 
I mentioned the meaning of evil. Evil isn't that ignorant people make 
bad decisions. Evil is when society as a whole, for whatever reasons, 
becomes an accomplice to and enshrines bad decisions, intentionally 
avoids truth and justice, and looks the other way in a climate of 
corruption. I hope you and others like you can push the propaganda, the 
sound bites, and the false emotional issues aside to see the truth. And 
take meaningful action. Our nation depends on it.

Jim Meyer

>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:01:34 -0800
>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Aggressive Audit of Poor Par for Course
>	(Molly Ivins)
>To: kjajmix1 at msn.com
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Message-ID: <BAY108-F3937065912964E3639BB1DEA1A0 at phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>Keely
>
>I listened to the interviews of the families and that was their general 
>contention.  And even assuming that West Virginia were flush with jobs, say 
>down at the local Wally World, the pay and the skills and a lot more took 
>the veteran miners underground.  The kid who was rescued was the rookie, 
>with only three years on the job, while the rest of the men at Sago that day 
>had decades underground.
>
>Entry level wages for a muck stick operator, a surface guy plying a shovel 
>are $11 an hour.  Guys with years in the business make very good blue collar 
>wages for what is a highly skilled job.  They need to know how to drill 
>blast patterns that only shot the seam, how to engineer supports, wire the 
>electrical and set up air feeds, run coal and rock cutting equipment, keep 
>muckers and tram systems going.  And I am sorry, but I do not know of too 
>many people who ever work a mine because they were driven to it by economic 
>need.  What might have been a reality in the 1900-40 is not one today.
>
>I commented to you because I started to read Molly Ivins piece, caught her 
>standard diatribe and simply had to say, yetch!  My comment is directed 
>exclusively at Ms Ivins.  The dangerous papercuts she receives make it 
>perfectly OK I guess to call people stooges for Mining Companies, as if a 
>company wants to see twelve top flight employees killed, its mine crushed by 
>an explosion and millions of dollars lost.  Saying that somebody is a stooge 
>for something instantly says that the entity you are stooging for is 
>disreputable and I have read enough of Molly's anti-mining pieces to know 
>that in her High Rise Office space she sees mines as evil nasty places 
>inhabited by the forces of darkness.
>
>Molly and her ilk have painted pictures for all of you of Miners and the 
>companies they work for that I frankly can not recognize from real life 
>experiences in mines around the world.  From Captain Planet to Molly Ivins 
>columns the impression keeps coming that Mining Companies must be forcing 
>people below ground at the point of a gun, working hard to destroy the 
>planet and getting paid by the acre of destruction they work hard to assure 
>happens.  The image comes equipped with impressions of slave drivers 
>whipping children through darkness lit only by feeble candle flickers.
>
>Yes it’s silly to see the poor as somehow the root of corruption.  That’s as 
>silly as dehumanizing a whole profession and demonizing its culture.  Its as 
>silly as a writer sitting in a high rise office building risking nothing and 
>dragging down more money than the President of the United States of 
>America’s salary yammering about subjects she has no knowledge of using 
>tired clichés to do it and all while twelve families are trying to find 
>solace for their loses.
>
>If nothing else, Ivins can always get my blood pressure going.  You may be 
>right, she has a point somewhere in her piece there.  But at what point does 
>a hit piece writer write one too many attacks and low blows?  She reached 
>that point with me many years ago.
>
>Phil Nisbet
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>>To: pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Aggressive Audit of Poor Par for Course (Molly 
>>Ivins)
>>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:15:33 -0800
>>
>>Phil,
>>
>>Other than disputing your contention that the miners all loved their work 
>>-- I think that you might find that not to be the case if West Virginia 
>>were flush with other employment opportunities -- I really can't talk much 
>>about mining.  The point of my post was Ivins' development into the 
>>Bush-encouraged IRS and its picking out and picking on poor people.
>>
>>You know a lot more about mining than I do, but I bet you and I could both 
>>agree that perhaps the greatest example of graft, corruption and greed in 
>>the United States is not to be found among those families earning just at 
>>or below the poverty line -- but they sure make a hell of a target, don't 
>>they?
>>
>>Take care,
>>
>>keely
>>
>>
>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>To: kjajmix1 at msn.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Aggressive Audit of Poor Par for Course (Molly 
>>Ivins)
>>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:31:40 -0800
>>
>>Keely
>>
>>All I have to do is read Molly's routine that turns Miners into demons to 
>>stop bothering with getting further.  Her standard is to pick somebody and 
>>dehumanize them while singing a soft song for somebody else.
>>
>>MSHA has a dual mission.  They have to do mine inspections, but they also 
>>are the only ones left who can also carry out the work of the Bureau of 
>>Mines.  They are not the enemy.
>>
>>The coal companies are trying to mine and sell coal to the power industry 
>>for turning out electrical energy.  They fight to keep costs down so that 
>>the consumers do not pay higher electric bills.  They pay their workforce 
>>higher wages than most industrial jobs do, for what is a very hazardous 
>>profession.  They are not the enemy.
>>
>>Miner's love their jobs, which is why they work in an industry with such 
>>high hazards.  Its a job that has a built in culture very different than 
>>that on the street.  Its why the older miners would give their self 
>>rescuers to keep the young guy alive.  They are not the enemy.
>>
>>Not one of the people involved in that tragedy was a stooge.  They were all 
>>hands who knew the risks and did a job that others find distasteful or 
>>frightening.  They are not demons from hell, bent on destroying the 
>>environment or dollar hungry slime balls uncaring about worker safety.  No 
>>doubt Molly typed her report on a computer powered by the coal that those 
>>men dug, but instead of celebrating their lives and the gift that their 
>>labor gave her, she terms their culture one of stooges.
>>
>>She can never know the generosity of those miners, guys who will give their 
>>last dollar to worthy causes with nothing more than a shrug.  She will 
>>never be as close as a team working on a face to any other person she 
>>knows.  Molly's worse fear is a paper cut on the job, not the clear 
>>understanding that one day the rock with your name on it is going to get 
>>you.
>>
>>Mine safety is better now than it has ever been and hopefully it will get 
>>better still.  But mining will always be a risky job, as anything involving 
>>millions of tons of rock and high explosives and heavy machinery is bound 
>>to be.  And there will always be men and women who love the work and are 
>>willing to do it for the resources that you all enjoy.
>>
>>Phil Nisbet
>>Just another stooge I guess, Molly Ivers told me so.
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
>>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>
>>_____________________________________________________
>>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the 
>>communities of the Palouse since 1994.                 http://www.fsr.net   
>>                             mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
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>
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>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:13:30 -0800
>From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Aggressive Audit of Poor Par for Course
>	(Molly Ivins)
>To: "'Phil Nisbet'" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>, <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Message-ID: <200601170113.k0H1DcWl035436 at mail-gw.fsr.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>I believe it was claimed, during one of the interviews following the Sago
>Mine tragedy, that underground miners at Sago were taking home a mere $700
>every two weeks.  
>
>A son of one of the deceased miners said that he promised his father, a week
>or two before the accident, that he would not go to work in the mine.  I
>certainly don't blame him, considering that I earn more as an IH at UI.
>
>That aside.  Molly Ivins was NOT criticizing labor at the mine.  Her anger
>was aimed at management and its apparent lack of concern for safety.
>
>Enough said.
>
>Tom Hansen
>Moscow, Idaho
>
>"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
>safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in
>sideways, chocolate in one hand, a drink in the other, body thoroughly used
>up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO HOO. What a ride!'"
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet
>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 5:02 PM
>To: kjajmix1 at msn.com
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Aggressive Audit of Poor Par for Course (Molly
>Ivins)
>
>Keely
>
>I listened to the interviews of the families and that was their general 
>contention.  And even assuming that West Virginia were flush with jobs, say 
>down at the local Wally World, the pay and the skills and a lot more took 
>the veteran miners underground.  The kid who was rescued was the rookie, 
>with only three years on the job, while the rest of the men at Sago that day
>
>had decades underground.
>
>Entry level wages for a muck stick operator, a surface guy plying a shovel 
>are $11 an hour.  Guys with years in the business make very good blue collar
>
>wages for what is a highly skilled job.  They need to know how to drill 
>blast patterns that only shot the seam, how to engineer supports, wire the 
>electrical and set up air feeds, run coal and rock cutting equipment, keep 
>muckers and tram systems going.  And I am sorry, but I do not know of too 
>many people who ever work a mine because they were driven to it by economic 
>need.  What might have been a reality in the 1900-40 is not one today.
>
>I commented to you because I started to read Molly Ivins piece, caught her 
>standard diatribe and simply had to say, yetch!  My comment is directed 
>exclusively at Ms Ivins.  The dangerous papercuts she receives make it 
>perfectly OK I guess to call people stooges for Mining Companies, as if a 
>company wants to see twelve top flight employees killed, its mine crushed by
>
>an explosion and millions of dollars lost.  Saying that somebody is a stooge
>
>for something instantly says that the entity you are stooging for is 
>disreputable and I have read enough of Molly's anti-mining pieces to know 
>that in her High Rise Office space she sees mines as evil nasty places 
>inhabited by the forces of darkness.
>
>Molly and her ilk have painted pictures for all of you of Miners and the 
>companies they work for that I frankly can not recognize from real life 
>experiences in mines around the world.  From Captain Planet to Molly Ivins 
>columns the impression keeps coming that Mining Companies must be forcing 
>people below ground at the point of a gun, working hard to destroy the 
>planet and getting paid by the acre of destruction they work hard to assure 
>happens.  The image comes equipped with impressions of slave drivers 
>whipping children through darkness lit only by feeble candle flickers.
>
>Yes it’s silly to see the poor as somehow the root of corruption.  That’s as
>
>silly as dehumanizing a whole profession and demonizing its culture.  Its as
>
>silly as a writer sitting in a high rise office building risking nothing and
>
>dragging down more money than the President of the United States of 
>America’s salary yammering about subjects she has no knowledge of using 
>tired clichés to do it and all while twelve families are trying to find 
>solace for their loses.
>
>If nothing else, Ivins can always get my blood pressure going.  You may be 
>right, she has a point somewhere in her piece there.  But at what point does
>
>a hit piece writer write one too many attacks and low blows?  She reached 
>that point with me many years ago.
>
>Phil Nisbet
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>>To: pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Aggressive Audit of Poor Par for Course (Molly 
>>Ivins)
>>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:15:33 -0800
>>
>>Phil,
>>
>>Other than disputing your contention that the miners all loved their work 
>>-- I think that you might find that not to be the case if West Virginia 
>>were flush with other employment opportunities -- I really can't talk much 
>>about mining.  The point of my post was Ivins' development into the 
>>Bush-encouraged IRS and its picking out and picking on poor people.
>>
>>You know a lot more about mining than I do, but I bet you and I could both 
>>agree that perhaps the greatest example of graft, corruption and greed in 
>>the United States is not to be found among those families earning just at 
>>or below the poverty line -- but they sure make a hell of a target, don't 
>>they?
>>
>>Take care,
>>
>>keely
>>
>>
>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>To: kjajmix1 at msn.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Aggressive Audit of Poor Par for Course (Molly 
>>Ivins)
>>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:31:40 -0800
>>
>>Keely
>>
>>All I have to do is read Molly's routine that turns Miners into demons to 
>>stop bothering with getting further.  Her standard is to pick somebody and 
>>dehumanize them while singing a soft song for somebody else.
>>
>>MSHA has a dual mission.  They have to do mine inspections, but they also 
>>are the only ones left who can also carry out the work of the Bureau of 
>>Mines.  They are not the enemy.
>>
>>The coal companies are trying to mine and sell coal to the power industry 
>>for turning out electrical energy.  They fight to keep costs down so that 
>>the consumers do not pay higher electric bills.  They pay their workforce 
>>higher wages than most industrial jobs do, for what is a very hazardous 
>>profession.  They are not the enemy.
>>
>>Miner's love their jobs, which is why they work in an industry with such 
>>high hazards.  Its a job that has a built in culture very different than 
>>that on the street.  Its why the older miners would give their self 
>>rescuers to keep the young guy alive.  They are not the enemy.
>>
>>Not one of the people involved in that tragedy was a stooge.  They were all
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>hands who knew the risks and did a job that others find distasteful or 
>>frightening.  They are not demons from hell, bent on destroying the 
>>environment or dollar hungry slime balls uncaring about worker safety.  No 
>>doubt Molly typed her report on a computer powered by the coal that those 
>>men dug, but instead of celebrating their lives and the gift that their 
>>labor gave her, she terms their culture one of stooges.
>>
>>She can never know the generosity of those miners, guys who will give their
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>last dollar to worthy causes with nothing more than a shrug.  She will 
>>never be as close as a team working on a face to any other person she 
>>knows.  Molly's worse fear is a paper cut on the job, not the clear 
>>understanding that one day the rock with your name on it is going to get 
>>you.
>>
>>Mine safety is better now than it has ever been and hopefully it will get 
>>better still.  But mining will always be a risky job, as anything involving
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>millions of tons of rock and high explosives and heavy machinery is bound 
>>to be.  And there will always be men and women who love the work and are 
>>willing to do it for the resources that you all enjoy.
>>
>>Phil Nisbet
>>Just another stooge I guess, Molly Ivers told me so.
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
>>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>
>>_____________________________________________________
>>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the 
>>communities of the Palouse since 1994.                 http://www.fsr.net
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>                             mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
>>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>>
>>    
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
>               http://www.fsr.net                       
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet, 
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
>               http://www.fsr.net                       
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>
>End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 20, Issue 187
>*******************************************
>
>.
>
>  
>



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