[Vision2020] Two issues in one

[g. crabtree]

I thought that starting my closing sentence with "if" would mark it as an 
obvious rhetorical device. In reality I do not advocate limiting their 
freedom of expression but, I do fervently wish they would choose a more 
appropriate venue to conduct their lunatic demonstrations. The idea that any 
good might come from the demented gatherings that Phelps stages at memorial 
services for the fallen is more then out weighted by the pain it must cause 
for the family & friends attending.

gc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Two issues in one


>I am not quite of the same mind as Crabtree on this issue.
>
> I agree with Crabtree that Phelps and company are major religious 
> crackpots and their message is to gays what Hitler's was to Jews, Gypsies, 
> etc.
>
> However, I would not advocate limiting their freedom of expression.
>
> Intruding on those who are grieving for those lost serving their country 
> is not a way to win sympathy for their repulsive cause.  Perhaps, the more 
> this group exposes themselves, the more sympathy and tolerance they 
> generate for gays, AND the more they encourage thinking religious people 
> to realize that religious "truth" is an evasive/flexible/non-decidable 
> quest and that complete reliance on such "truth" is perhaps a mistake 
> especially on the issue of homosexuality.
>
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> deco at moscow.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> To: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Two issues in one
>
>
>> In the past I have always thought of the "Reverend" Fred Phelps as a 
>> major wack job, totally lacking in anything that could even remotely be 
>> described as decency. After reading Mr. Lenz's AP story,  I can see that 
>> I was far too generous in my estimation of this odious dickhead. If a one 
>> shot first amendment repeal were available, heres a perfect place to 
>> spend it.
>>
>> gc
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 6:17 PM
>> Subject: [Vision2020] Two issues in one
>>
>>
>>> This just out.  When gay bashing Nazi Aryan Churchs do anti-War Protests 
>>> who you going to call?
>>>
>>> Motorcyclists Roll to Soldier Funerals By RYAN LENZ, Associated Press 
>>> Writer
>>> Tue Feb 21, 6:11 AM ET
>>>
>>> FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. - Wearing vests covered in military patches, a band 
>>> of motorcyclists rolls around the country from one soldier's funeral to 
>>> another, cheering respectfully to overshadow jeers from church 
>>> protesters.
>>>
>>> They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 
>>> 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred 
>>> Phelps at military funerals.
>>>
>>> Phelps believes American deaths in     Iraq are divine punishment for a 
>>> country that he says harbors homosexuals. His protesters carry signs 
>>> thanking God for so-called IEDs - explosives that are a major killer of 
>>> soldiers in Iraq.
>>>
>>> The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and 
>>> overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and 
>>> blue flags.
>>>
>>> "The most important thing we can do is let families know that the nation 
>>> cares," said Don Woodrick, the group's Kentucky captain. "When a total 
>>> stranger gets on a motorcycle in the middle of winter and drives 300 
>>> miles to hold a flag, that makes a powerful statement."
>>>
>>> At least 14 states are considering laws aimed at the funeral protesters, 
>>> who at a recent memorial service at Fort Campbell wrapped themselves in 
>>> upside-down American flags. They danced and sang impromptu songs 
>>> peppered with vulgarities that condemned homosexuals and soldiers.
>>>
>>> The Patriot Guard was also there, waving up a ruckus of support for the 
>>> families across the street. Community members came in the freezing rain 
>>> to chant "U-S-A, U-S-A" alongside them.
>>>
>>> "This is just the right thing to do. This is something America didn't do 
>>> in the '70s," said Kurt Mayer, the group's national spokesman. "Whether 
>>> we agree with why we're over there, these soldiers are dying to protect 
>>> our freedoms."
>>>
>>> Shirley Phelps-Roper, a daughter of Fred Phelps and an attorney for the 
>>> Topeka, Kan.-based church, said neither state laws nor the Patriot Guard 
>>> can silence their message that God killed the soldiers because they 
>>> fought for a country that embraces homosexuals.
>>>
>>> "The scriptures are crystal clear that when God sets out to punish a 
>>> nation, it is with the sword. An IED is just a broken-up sword," 
>>> Phelps-Roper said. "Since that is his weapon of choice, our forum of 
>>> choice has got to be a dead soldier's funeral."
>>>
>>> The church, Westboro Baptist Church, is not affiliated with a larger 
>>> denomination and is made up mostly of Fred Phelps' extended family 
>>> members.
>>>
>>> During the 1990s, church members were known mostly for picketing the 
>>> funerals of     AIDS victims, and they have long been tracked as a hate 
>>> group by the Montgomery, Ala.-based Southern Poverty Law Center's 
>>> Intelligence Project.
>>>
>>> The project's deputy director, Heidi Beirich, said other groups have 
>>> tried to counter Phelps' message, but none has been as organized as the 
>>> Patriot Guard.
>>>
>>> "I'm not sure anybody has gone to this length to stand in solidarity," 
>>> she said. "It's nice that these veterans and their supporters are trying 
>>> to do something. I can't imagine anything worse, your loved one is 
>>> killed in Iraq and you've got to deal with Fred Phelps."
>>>
>>> Kentucky, home to sprawling Fort Campbell along the Tennessee line, was 
>>> among the first states to attempt to deal with Phelps legislatively. Its 
>>> House and Senate have each passed bills that would limit people from 
>>> protesting within 300 feet of a funeral or memorial service. The Senate 
>>> version would also keep protesters from being within earshot of grieving 
>>> friends and family members.
>>>
>>> Richard Wilbur, a retired police detective, said his Indiana Patriot 
>>> Guard group only comes to funerals if invited by family. He said he has 
>>> no problem with protests against the war but sees no place for objectors 
>>> at a family's final goodbye to a soldier.
>>>
>>> "No one deserves this," he said.
>>>
>>> ___
>>>
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