[Vision2020] My answer to the Princess

[keely emerinemix]

I am not a Biblical scholar, but I do know that Ralph is correct in that we 
know nothing about the Nicolaitans apart from the fact that they disgust the 
Lord Jesus.  Perhaps they were those who trumpeted the name of Christ and 
used their interpretation of Scripture to bludgeon those around them -- or 
at least justify asking God to do it for them.  We'll likely never know.

Nonetheless, I am confident that despite the Princess' desire to set me 
straight, he or she reveals a bloated theology of martyrdom and persecution. 
  Princess demonstrates a lack of cogency and consistency of argument, 
insofar as the hatred of Christ toward his enemies is a privilege of the 
Almighty, the longsuffering and righteous One, and not something we 
appropriate by imitation.  Let me put it simply:  When I cease to be a 
sinner, I can presume the "right" to imprecatory prayer, the calling down of 
hellfire judgment on the wicked.  Until then, I am as deserving of it apart 
from Christ as the worst of his enemies, and the reach of grace is extended 
to them as well as to me.  Of course, if you're a Calvinist, you don't -- 
you can't -- believe that.  I'm not, and so I do.  I am a sinner, entirely 
unworthy of God's grace and well aware of my lack of standing.  I am to 
IMITATE Christ, but I may never APPROPRIATE that which isn't mine.

I'm struck by the ease with which our Kirk-defending friends presume that 
their "enemy theology," which justifies their use and encouragement of 
imprecatory prayer, is formed through circumstances anything like those of 
the martyred souls portrayed in the Revelation.  Please.  When I see a 
member of Christ Church persecuted -- deprived of life, limb, liberty or 
livelihood -- for preaching a Gospel of reconciliation, for helping the 
poor, for renouncing the ways of this world and embracing the kingdom not of 
this world, I'll see a parallel.

None now exists.  Christ Church has behaved badly and has thus subjected 
itself to the verdict of the "marketplace of ideas" in the community in 
which it chooses to exist.  Questions about zoning, tax exemption, bigotry, 
sexism, adjudication and counsel of sex offenders, gambling, aberrant 
theology and ecclesiastical dealings are the price you pay for arrogant 
behavior, even if the questions themselves fail to result in de juro or de 
facto conviction.  This isn't persecution, and sure isn't martyrdom or 
anything close to it.  The only thing I see being killed at Christ Church is 
the noxious weed of privilege, bigotry, patriarchy, and arrogance.  I am at 
a loss as to how that mirrors the martyrdom of the souls portrayed in the 
Revelation.  At the risk of seeming flip, I don't think that my decision to 
not buy my coffee at Bucer's, or to debate Doug Wilson, or to rebuke 
strongly certain NSA staffers is equal to the horror suffered by the 
martyrs.  And if it's even remotely uncomfortable, my being a Trinitarian 
Evangelical AND an Intolerista, then what would the Kirk do with the 
imprecatory prayers of the Revelation?  Am I at risk, or am I calling down 
fire?  Is there any chance that God despises the appropriation of 
martyr-like persecution and righteous calls for damnation by those 
completely unworthy of such?

I've spent most of the weekend with a friend in the hospital.  This will, 
then, be my last word on the subject, at least regarding this thread.  It's 
time to whip up a spinach-and-chicken omelet for my son, and I trust the 
Princess will find that an appropriate use of my time.  I don't plan to 
expend any more dealing with someone too cowardly to use his/her real name . 
. .

keely



From: Ralph Nielsen <nielsen at uidaho.edu>
To: Vision2020 at moscow.com
CC: Taro Tanaka <taro_tanaka at hotmail.com>, keely emerinemix 
<kjajmix1 at msn.com>,        J Ford <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:50:38 -0800

RALPH NIELSEN

As usual, Sushi fails to give us chapter and verse, thus making it  harder 
for people to follow her argument. A typical fundamentalist  tactic. The 
Nicolaitans are mentioned in Revelation 2:6 and 2:15.  According to the 
Anchor Bible Dictionary we know next to nothing  about the Nicolaitans apart 
from what we read in Revelation.

The Jesus who speaks in Revelation, which was written around the year  95 
CE, is not a historical  Jesus as presented in the gospels, but  Jesus as 
imagined by the author of Revelation, whoever he was. The  historical Jesus 
was a Jew who went to synagogue. He had never heard  of such a thing as a 
Christian church. So it wasn't Jesus who hated  the Nicolaitans but the 
author of Revelation, who put those words in  his mouth.

The fact that this scenario is placed in heaven is clear evidence  that it 
is entirely imaginary. It is a typical piece of apocalyptic  writing, which 
was common in that period. It is really quite Jewish  in spirit. Read Rev. 
20:11-13. No salvation by faith or election here.

Sure, Revelation is written in Greek. This makes it part of the Greek  
scriptures, as accepted by the organized Catholic church. But it is  not 
typical of the other New Testament books at all. So it can hardly  be said 
that it was typical of early Xian worship. Sushi wrote, "In  the one place 
where the Greek scriptures show us by far the most  detailed description of 
worship, imprecatory prayer is part of that  worship." What it does show us 
is a typical example of apocalyptic  polemics.

Sorry to prick your balloon, Princess. I know your gang loves to  hate. 
Someone once wrote that "There is no hate like Christian love."  I know this 
isn't true of all Xians but it certainly seems to be true  of you guys.


PRINCESS SUSHI:

Keely, perhaps I can help clarify this point for you. The Book of  
Revelation
is very revealing indeed in this respect. Consider:

1) Jesus says twice in this book that He HATES the Nicoliatans [sic].

2) The book reveals to us a worship scene in Heaven, taking place in the
immediate presence of God. There "I saw under the altar the souls of  them
that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they  held:
and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and  true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the  earth?"
Does that sound to you like an imprecatory prayer? It does to me. In  the 
one
place where the Greek scriptures show us by far the most detailed
description of worship, imprecatory prayer is part of that worship. The
prayer is offered up by human beings -- the disembodied souls of  martyrs, 
to
be sure, but they are no omniscient than we are -- and they are  calling for
God's vengeance upon certain evil men who have persecuted Christ's  church.
Moreover, later we see God responding to this imprecatory prayer and  doing
exactly what was requested of Him: ". . . Rejoice over [Babylon], thou
heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you  on her.

[snip]

So there we have it: imprecatory prayer offered by people, and  answered by
God, in the very model of Christian worship given to us by the Greek
scriptures. And it is a model for us, because Jesus Himself taught  us, "Thy
will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven." Worship is the Christian's
warfare, and imprecatory prayers are part of our arsenal. If that  causes 
you
to stumble as a Christian, I shall be praying for God to work in your  heart
with His Holy Spirit so that you will be able to mature to accept the
entirety of His truth.

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