[Vision2020] (no subject)

[Ralph Nielsen]

RALPH NIELSEN

As usual, Sushi fails to give us chapter and verse, thus making it  
harder for people to follow her argument. A typical fundamentalist  
tactic. The Nicolaitans are mentioned in Revelation 2:6 and 2:15.  
According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary we know next to nothing  
about the Nicolaitans apart from what we read in Revelation.

The Jesus who speaks in Revelation, which was written around the year  
95 CE, is not a historical  Jesus as presented in the gospels, but  
Jesus as imagined by the author of Revelation, whoever he was. The  
historical Jesus was a Jew who went to synagogue. He had never heard  
of such a thing as a Christian church. So it wasn't Jesus who hated  
the Nicolaitans but the author of Revelation, who put those words in  
his mouth.

The fact that this scenario is placed in heaven is clear evidence  
that it is entirely imaginary. It is a typical piece of apocalyptic  
writing, which was common in that period. It is really quite Jewish  
in spirit. Read Rev. 20:11-13. No salvation by faith or election here.

Sure, Revelation is written in Greek. This makes it part of the Greek  
scriptures, as accepted by the organized Catholic church. But it is  
not typical of the other New Testament books at all. So it can hardly  
be said that it was typical of early Xian worship. Sushi wrote, "In  
the one place where the Greek scriptures show us by far the most  
detailed description of worship, imprecatory prayer is part of that  
worship." What it does show us is a typical example of apocalyptic  
polemics.

Sorry to prick your balloon, Princess. I know your gang loves to  
hate. Someone once wrote that "There is no hate like Christian love."  
I know this isn't true of all Xians but it certainly seems to be true  
of you guys.


PRINCESS SUSHI:

Keely, perhaps I can help clarify this point for you. The Book of  
Revelation
is very revealing indeed in this respect. Consider:

1) Jesus says twice in this book that He HATES the Nicoliatans [sic].

2) The book reveals to us a worship scene in Heaven, taking place in the
immediate presence of God. There "I saw under the altar the souls of  
them
that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they  
held:
and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and  
true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the  
earth?"
Does that sound to you like an imprecatory prayer? It does to me. In  
the one
place where the Greek scriptures show us by far the most detailed
description of worship, imprecatory prayer is part of that worship. The
prayer is offered up by human beings -- the disembodied souls of  
martyrs, to
be sure, but they are no omniscient than we are -- and they are  
calling for
God's vengeance upon certain evil men who have persecuted Christ's  
church.
Moreover, later we see God responding to this imprecatory prayer and  
doing
exactly what was requested of Him: ". . . Rejoice over [Babylon], thou
heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you  
on her.

[snip]

So there we have it: imprecatory prayer offered by people, and  
answered by
God, in the very model of Christian worship given to us by the Greek
scriptures. And it is a model for us, because Jesus Himself taught  
us, "Thy
will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven." Worship is the Christian's
warfare, and imprecatory prayers are part of our arsenal. If that  
causes you
to stumble as a Christian, I shall be praying for God to work in your  
heart
with His Holy Spirit so that you will be able to mature to accept the
entirety of His truth.