[Vision2020] When Did We Become The Enemy?

[J Ford]

Both Miss Keely in her writings as well as in her debate with Dougie-BOY, 
and Wayne, in this writing, make excellent points regarding the practice of 
praying for the destruction of a perceived enemy, that Christ Church 
seemingly is increasingly relying on.

I have to question the fact that Dougie-BOY and his bunch, having stated 
repeatedly, that they want to "just get along with the good people of 
Moscow" would turn around and now view those very same "good people of 
Moscow" as their enemy.  Just what made them turn that corner and declare 
that finding?  What event(s) did it for them?

And how is publishing a prayer, knowing full well that the "good people of 
Moscow" routinely read his blog, supposed to help?  Are we supposed to see 
the prayer, realize we have terribly upset the balance of the Wilsonistas 
and repent?  Promise never to do it again (whatever "IT" is/was?)  Or is 
"IT" so tenuous that we are just to fall in line with them and HOPE we never 
do "IT" again accidentally much less on purpose?

Give us a hand here, Dougie-BOY....let us in on just what "IT" is that we 
have violated and see if "IT" is something we are willing or able to change. 
  After all, it is NOT our purpose in life to upset your delicate 
sensibilities, hurt your lacey feelings, bruise your fragile ego.  WE, 
rather, are doing our best, like you, to "just get along."  We just choose 
not to pray for your destruction and certainly not on the web for all the 
world to see.

J  :]





>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] the Princess, Part 6 (Imprecatory, Prayer Part 2)
>Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:52:55 -0800
>
>  Michael quotes Princess Doug Jones, et al of the Wilson & Family's 
>Christless Crackpot Cult & Cash Machine:
>
>"[I]imprecatory prayer is not only justifiable for the Christian, it is 
>*necessary,* and its neglect is not a good thing. The fact that Christians 
>fail to properly understand and use imprecatory prayer probably accounts 
>for a considerable amount of the *weakness* experienced by Christian 
>churches today."
>
>
>
>Michael also gives a chilling example of imprecatory prayer in his post 
>(below).
>
>
>
>As a nonbeliever, perhaps my noticing the blatant contradiction to words of 
>and total sacrilege against Christ by the power and money hungry leadership 
>of this cult may not mean anything to believers.  However, one cannot help 
>noting in this context the revolutionary view of Christ which is central to 
>Christian ethics and its followers' bid for alleged salvation/eternal 
>reward:
>
>
>
>Matthew 5: 38 through 48
>
>"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a 
>tooth.'
>
>But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer.
>
>But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if 
>anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if 
>anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile.
>
>Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to 
>borrow from you.
>
>"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate 
>your enemy.'
>
>But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 
>so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun 
>rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on 
>the unrighteous.
>
>For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?  Do not even 
>the tax collectors do the same?
>
>And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing 
>than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
>
>Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect".
>
>
>
>If you read the above with any care at all, it is clear that Christ is 
>urging his followers not only to love all including their enemies and treat 
>them with kindness, but not to separate themselves from others -- an act 
>which makes them less godly than even the Gentiles (remember, Jesus was 
>preaching to his fellow Jews).  Also, note the last sentence of the quote.
>
>
>
>Imprecatory prayer is like torture.  It is a tool used by frustrated, power 
>hungry, impotent men who are unable to acquire and to satisfy their great 
>need for ascendancy over others by truthful, civil persuasion, most likely 
>because what they claim is without any credible logical or epistemological 
>foundation.
>
>In addition, imprecatory prayer is so contrary to the teachings of Christ 
>(whom these same men allegedly equate totally in some incomprehensible way 
>to their alleged God) that practitioners and proponents of this practice 
>are likely to be condemned to eternal punishment should the words of Christ 
>as found in the synoptic Gospels in some improbable way turn out to be 
>true.  These men are not messengers of Christ, but to believers should be 
>seen as dangerous agents of the alleged Anti-Christ.
>
>The words and actions of the leadership of the Wilson & Family's Christless 
>Crackpot Cult & Cash Machine are so contrary to the teachings of Christ 
>that one is compelled to believe that they are simply greedy, devious con 
>artists cleverly using Christ as their hook to fleece the gullible/blinded 
>by need or the witless/blinded by need and to gain power and ascendancy 
>over the lives of such.
>
>
>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>deco at moscow.com
>
>
>PS:  Do wonder why a man of the cult might use a female pseudonym/persona 
>(Princess) to argue for the warped views of the cult?  After all, in their 
>view women are not allowed to preach.  Hmmm.  Is there perhaps contained in 
>this female persona disguise a covert or unconscious plea/invitation to a 
>member of the same sex for a private assignation?
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Michael Metzler
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 8:44 PM
>Subject: [Vision2020] the Princess, Part 6 (Imprecatory, Prayer Part 2)
>
>
>
>The anonymous Kirk apologist Princess writes:
>
>
>
>   "Mr. Metzler puts words in my mouth. He claims I wrote in defense of 
>Doug Wilson; however, I made no mention of Doug Wilson. As usual, Mr. 
>Metzler assumes too much. He still believes in the infallibility of old 
>Pater Nostril. He not only puts words in my mouth based on his assumptions 
>concerning me. . . Metzler's approach here is simply lacking in the charity 
>that is required of a Christian"
>
>
>
>And the Princess goes on:
>
>
>
>   "And since Mr. Metzler brings up Wilson's recent prayer posted online, 
>let me state the obvious and acknowledge that there are ways of reading 
>this prayer that would lead one to conclude it is an evil prayer. However, 
>such a reading is either uncharitable or not biblically informed, or both, 
>and reveals more about the person making the interpretation than it does 
>about Wilson. There is also a charitable and biblically informed way of 
>reading this prayer which does not lead one to condemn the person who made 
>it.. . ."
>
>
>
>As usual, the Princess' lips drip with...something other than sincerity and 
>truth.  Oh my! How dare you claim that I had intentions of defend Doug 
>Wilson!  How presumptuous!  Why, this is not even Christian!
>
>
>
>Perhaps she felt comfortable finally answering me here since I hardly 
>furthered an argument this time around, but rather just directed you to the 
>kind of prayer the Princess *would* be committed to defending.  Ah! There I 
>go again! How unchristian of me to presume that the Princess would want to 
>defend this prayer!  That is just putting intentions in her little royal 
>heart! What audacity! How off base my sniffing snoozer was!  I just can't 
>get anything right anymore.
>
>
>
>Now, let me direct your attention to the fact that the Princess does not 
>deny my preliminary claims, answer any arguments (whether explicit or 
>implicit), or explain to us how "obvious" it is that there is a wonderful 
>meaning hidden behind Wilson's lengthy pleading with God to harm, punish, 
>mutilate, and remove from all grace particular people. The Princess can't 
>claim that these particular people are unrelenting murderers and rapists, 
>since Wilson is contextually committed to praying these prayers to local 
>critics in Moscow, Idaho.  The claim that my bracketed comments suggest an 
>uncharitable reading into Wilson's meaning is unwarranted, to say the 
>least; they were largely argumentative questions directly made to the 
>natural meaning of Wilson's words. The princess writes:
>
>
>
>    "he puts words into Doug Wilson's mouth based on his assumptions 
>concerning Wilson. (Note all the bracketed insertions into the extended 
>quote from Wilson's blog.)"
>
>
>
>Also curious is the Princess' worry about *who* the prayer was directed to, 
>since it doesn't matter to me at all if there were particular people Wilson 
>had in mind when writing this prayer (although the larger context is 
>suggestive). The point is that when someone prays a prayer like this they 
>*are* to have specific people in mind; further, this prayer was explicitly 
>given as a defense for the use of imprecatory prayer of the kind prayed by 
>the Kirk. And when Wilson and the Kirk prays imprecatory prayers *they do* 
>have specific individuals in mind. And as I stated in my original post, and 
>what the Princess has not denied, Wilson's practice of imprecatory prayer 
>has been largely directed to local neighbors in the Moscow community, local 
>neighbors who happened to have great public concern about Wilson doing 
>things like praying imprecatory prayers.  The point is obvious and yet the 
>Princess expends all her/his/their energy trying to simply cover the point 
>up through great concern over my uncharitable suggestion that the Princess 
>was actually interested in defending Doug Wilson's imprecatory prayers!
>
>
>
>The Princess leaves us with some disturbing words for the contemporary 
>American Christian:
>
>
>
>   "[I]mprecatory prayer is not only justifiable for the Christian, it is 
>*necessary,* and its neglect is not a good thing. The fact that Christians 
>fail to properly understand and use imprecatory prayer probably accounts 
>for a considerable amount of the *weakness* experienced by Christian 
>churches today."
>
>
>
>I dare hope for the Kirk to gain any more *strength*!
>
>
>
>Here again is the prayer for your own consideration; here is the model 
>prayer of imprecation, the kind of prayer Wilson and other Kirkers have 
>prayed against their critics here in our otherwise fairly peaceful small 
>town of Mosocw, Idaho. Here is the gospel of peace to the surrounding. . . 
>. "enemy":
>
>
>
>Father, we pray that the angel of the Lord would chase them down. We pray
>
>that You would set for them a dark and slippery place, and that the angel
>
>of the Lord would persecute them there. They have hated us without any
>
>just cause at all, and they have devised all their plots without any good
>
>reason. We ask You therefore to rise up and defend us. Stand in the pass
>
>behind us, and lower Your spear against them. Turn them back from their
>
>wicked attacks. Rout them, we pray. Chase them like chaff in a stiff
>
>wind. We pray that You would string Your bow, sharpen Your sword, make
>
>ready all the instruments of death. Ordain Your arrows to fly against
>
>those who persecute the righteous. Make their mischief to roll back on
>
>their own impudent heads.
>
>
>
>. . . Let their table become poisonous to them, let it become a snare.
>
>Let their eyes be darkened, and judicial blindness fall upon them.
>
>
>
>We pray that their eyes would be blinded by You; strike them so that they
>
>cannot see. Father, we pray that You would make their loins shake
>
>continuously, that they would be seized with fear and amazement. Pour out
>
>hot indignation all over them; take hold of them tightly in Your wrathful
>
>anger. May their dwellings become empty and desolate-for whenever You
>
>chastise anyone else, they love to pile on as though You were not there.
>
>They persecute the one that You are disciplining, and by their talk they
>
>dismay the one who is suffering under Your hand. Add iniquity to their
>
>iniquity; make a great heap of their sins. Do not let them enter into
>
>Your righteousness. Blot them out of the book of the living. Do not
>
>record their names alongside the names of the righteous.
>
>
>
>God of our praise, do not hold Your peace. The mouths of the wicked and
>
>the mouths of the deceitful have joined in chorus together, and they are
>
>speaking against us with lying tongue. They are surrounding us
>
>with words of hatred, and they fight against us without good reason
>
>. It is because we love You that they are our adversaries
>
>, but we still give ourselves to prayer. Not only have we
>
>incurred their hostility by loving You, but we have also loved them, and
>
>have been treacherously betrayed by them. They returned evil for good,
>
>and hatred for love, ingratitude for kindness.
>
>
>
>Let these wicked men come under the rule and reign of wicked men. Let
>
>Satan be continually at their right hand, accusing them. When they come
>
>into judgment, when the trial comes, we pray that the verdict of guilty
>
>would be rendered. When they cry out to You, let their prayers be
>
>reckoned as sinful. When they pray to You, let the ceiling above them
>
>remain silent. Cut short their days. When they have abused offices within
>
>Your Church, let other faithful men rise up to take their place.
>
>
>
>Let their children be orphaned, cut off without a father. Let their wives
>
>be widows, and we pray that their children would be desolate, having to
>
>beg their bread in empty places. We pray that the extortioner would come
>
>back at them, catching them in their plots, and taking all that they
>
>have. May strangers and aliens pillage them and leave them with nothing.
>
>We pray that when this happens, and Your hand is evident, that no one
>
>would show mercy, and that no kindness would be extended to his
>
>fatherless children. Cut off his posterity; may his name and his line
>
>come to nothing. Recall how sinful his father was, and call up again the
>
>sins of his mother. May their sins come before Your throne continually so
>
>that their name may be blotted out, and remembered on the earth no more.
>
>
>
>We ask for this because he is merciless. He loved to kick the poor and
>
>downtrodden, and sought to kill the broken-hearted. He loved cursing, and
>
>so give him that cursing. He detested blessing, so let blessing remain
>
>far away from him. He would put on curses like a comfortable coat; let
>
>those curses of his seep into him deeply. Tie those curses around him
>
>permanently. Let this be the clothing of all our enemies.
>
>
>
>Let them curse, so long as You bless. When they get up in the morning,
>
>and hear of the blessings You have bestowed on us, let them be greatly
>
>ashamed. Let confusion cover over them completely, as though it were a
>
>mantle. I pray that You stand at our right hand, and that You would
>
>always save us from those who would condemn our souls.
>
>
>
>We offer this pray to You in the righteous and holy name of the Lord
>
>Jesus Christ, and amen.
>
>Posted by Douglas Wilson - 11/24/2006 1:04:30 PM | Link to this post |
>
>Print this post"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>=======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>Michael quote Princess Doug Jones, et al,
>
>"[I]mprecatory prayer is not only justifiable for the Christian, it is 
>*necessary,* and its neglect is not a good thing. The fact that Christians 
>fail to properly understand and use imprecatory prayer probably accounts 
>for a considerable amount of the *weakness* experienced by Christian 
>churches today."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Michael Metzler
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 8:44 PM
>Subject: [Vision2020] the Princess, Part 6 (Imprecatory, Prayer Part 2)
>
>
>
>The anonymous Kirk apologist Princess writes:
>
>
>
>   "Mr. Metzler puts words in my mouth. He claims I wrote in defense of 
>Doug Wilson; however, I made no mention of Doug Wilson. As usual, Mr. 
>Metzler assumes too much. He still believes in the infallibility of old 
>Pater Nostril. He not only puts words in my mouth based on his assumptions 
>concerning me. . . Metzler's approach here is simply lacking in the charity 
>that is required of a Christian"
>
>
>
>And the Princess goes on:
>
>
>
>   "And since Mr. Metzler brings up Wilson's recent prayer posted online, 
>let me state the obvious and acknowledge that there are ways of reading 
>this prayer that would lead one to conclude it is an evil prayer. However, 
>such a reading is either uncharitable or not biblically informed, or both, 
>and reveals more about the person making the interpretation than it does 
>about Wilson. There is also a charitable and biblically informed way of 
>reading this prayer which does not lead one to condemn the person who made 
>it.. . ."
>
>
>
>As usual, the Princess' lips drip with...something other than sincerity and 
>truth.  Oh my! How dare you claim that I had intentions of defend Doug 
>Wilson!  How presumptuous!  Why, this is not even Christian!
>
>
>
>Perhaps she felt comfortable finally answering me here since I hardly 
>furthered an argument this time around, but rather just directed you to the 
>kind of prayer the Princess *would* be committed to defending.  Ah! There I 
>go again! How unchristian of me to presume that the Princess would want to 
>defend this prayer!  That is just putting intentions in her little royal 
>heart! What audacity! How off base my sniffing snoozer was!  I just can't 
>get anything right anymore.
>
>
>
>Now, let me direct your attention to the fact that the Princess does not 
>deny my preliminary claims, answer any arguments (whether explicit or 
>implicit), or explain to us how "obvious" it is that there is a wonderful 
>meaning hidden behind Wilson's lengthy pleading with God to harm, punish, 
>mutilate, and remove from all grace particular people. The Princess can't 
>claim that these particular people are unrelenting murderers and rapists, 
>since Wilson is contextually committed to praying these prayers to local 
>critics in Moscow, Idaho.  The claim that my bracketed comments suggest an 
>uncharitable reading into Wilson's meaning is unwarranted, to say the 
>least; they were largely argumentative questions directly made to the 
>natural meaning of Wilson's words. The princess writes:
>
>
>
>    "he puts words into Doug Wilson's mouth based on his assumptions 
>concerning Wilson. (Note all the bracketed insertions into the extended 
>quote from Wilson's blog.)"
>
>
>
>Also curious is the Princess' worry about *who* the prayer was directed to, 
>since it doesn't matter to me at all if there were particular people Wilson 
>had in mind when writing this prayer (although the larger context is 
>suggestive). The point is that when someone prays a prayer like this they 
>*are* to have specific people in mind; further, this prayer was explicitly 
>given as a defense for the use of imprecatory prayer of the kind prayed by 
>the Kirk. And when Wilson and the Kirk prays imprecatory prayers *they do* 
>have specific individuals in mind. And as I stated in my original post, and 
>what the Princess has not denied, Wilson's practice of imprecatory prayer 
>has been largely directed to local neighbors in the Moscow community, local 
>neighbors who happened to have great public concern about Wilson doing 
>things like praying imprecatory prayers.  The point is obvious and yet the 
>Princess expends all her/his/their energy trying to simply cover the point 
>up through great concern over my uncharitable suggestion that the Princess 
>was actually interested in defending Doug Wilson's imprecatory prayers!
>
>
>
>The Princess leaves us with some disturbing words for the contemporary 
>American Christian:
>
>
>
>   "[I]mprecatory prayer is not only justifiable for the Christian, it is 
>*necessary,* and its neglect is not a good thing. The fact that Christians 
>fail to properly understand and use imprecatory prayer probably accounts 
>for a considerable amount of the *weakness* experienced by Christian 
>churches today."
>
>
>
>I dare hope for the Kirk to gain any more *strength*!
>
>
>
>Here again is the prayer for your own consideration; here is the model 
>prayer of imprecation, the kind of prayer Wilson and other Kirkers have 
>prayed against their critics here in our otherwise fairly peaceful small 
>town of Mosocw, Idaho. Here is the gospel of peace to the surrounding. . . 
>. "enemy":
>
>
>
>Father, we pray that the angel of the Lord would chase them down. We pray
>
>that You would set for them a dark and slippery place, and that the angel
>
>of the Lord would persecute them there. They have hated us without any
>
>just cause at all, and they have devised all their plots without any good
>
>reason. We ask You therefore to rise up and defend us. Stand in the pass
>
>behind us, and lower Your spear against them. Turn them back from their
>
>wicked attacks. Rout them, we pray. Chase them like chaff in a stiff
>
>wind. We pray that You would string Your bow, sharpen Your sword, make
>
>ready all the instruments of death. Ordain Your arrows to fly against
>
>those who persecute the righteous. Make their mischief to roll back on
>
>their own impudent heads.
>
>
>
>. . . Let their table become poisonous to them, let it become a snare.
>
>Let their eyes be darkened, and judicial blindness fall upon them.
>
>
>
>We pray that their eyes would be blinded by You; strike them so that they
>
>cannot see. Father, we pray that You would make their loins shake
>
>continuously, that they would be seized with fear and amazement. Pour out
>
>hot indignation all over them; take hold of them tightly in Your wrathful
>
>anger. May their dwellings become empty and desolate-for whenever You
>
>chastise anyone else, they love to pile on as though You were not there.
>
>They persecute the one that You are disciplining, and by their talk they
>
>dismay the one who is suffering under Your hand. Add iniquity to their
>
>iniquity; make a great heap of their sins. Do not let them enter into
>
>Your righteousness. Blot them out of the book of the living. Do not
>
>record their names alongside the names of the righteous.
>
>
>
>God of our praise, do not hold Your peace. The mouths of the wicked and
>
>the mouths of the deceitful have joined in chorus together, and they are
>
>speaking against us with lying tongue. They are surrounding us
>
>with words of hatred, and they fight against us without good reason
>
>. It is because we love You that they are our adversaries
>
>, but we still give ourselves to prayer. Not only have we
>
>incurred their hostility by loving You, but we have also loved them, and
>
>have been treacherously betrayed by them. They returned evil for good,
>
>and hatred for love, ingratitude for kindness.
>
>
>
>Let these wicked men come under the rule and reign of wicked men. Let
>
>Satan be continually at their right hand, accusing them. When they come
>
>into judgment, when the trial comes, we pray that the verdict of guilty
>
>would be rendered. When they cry out to You, let their prayers be
>
>reckoned as sinful. When they pray to You, let the ceiling above them
>
>remain silent. Cut short their days. When they have abused offices within
>
>Your Church, let other faithful men rise up to take their place.
>
>
>
>Let their children be orphaned, cut off without a father. Let their wives
>
>be widows, and we pray that their children would be desolate, having to
>
>beg their bread in empty places. We pray that the extortioner would come
>
>back at them, catching them in their plots, and taking all that they
>
>have. May strangers and aliens pillage them and leave them with nothing.
>
>We pray that when this happens, and Your hand is evident, that no one
>
>would show mercy, and that no kindness would be extended to his
>
>fatherless children. Cut off his posterity; may his name and his line
>
>come to nothing. Recall how sinful his father was, and call up again the
>
>sins of his mother. May their sins come before Your throne continually so
>
>that their name may be blotted out, and remembered on the earth no more.
>
>
>
>We ask for this because he is merciless. He loved to kick the poor and
>
>downtrodden, and sought to kill the broken-hearted. He loved cursing, and
>
>so give him that cursing. He detested blessing, so let blessing remain
>
>far away from him. He would put on curses like a comfortable coat; let
>
>those curses of his seep into him deeply. Tie those curses around him
>
>permanently. Let this be the clothing of all our enemies.
>
>
>
>Let them curse, so long as You bless. When they get up in the morning,
>
>and hear of the blessings You have bestowed on us, let them be greatly
>
>ashamed. Let confusion cover over them completely, as though it were a
>
>mantle. I pray that You stand at our right hand, and that You would
>
>always save us from those who would condemn our souls.
>
>
>
>We offer this pray to You in the righteous and holy name of the Lord
>
>Jesus Christ, and amen.
>
>Posted by Douglas Wilson - 11/24/2006 1:04:30 PM | Link to this post |
>
>Print this post"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>=======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================
><< adred_redirectid_mailfamily_img_src01 >>
><< adred_redirectid_mailfamily_a8tracker01 >>


>=======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================

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