[Vision2020] Biblical question

Tue Dec 12 07:29:44 PST 2006

The Princess assumes that the one who says "damn" is aware of what he and I 
know -- that "damn," as in eternal damnation, refers to eternal separation 
from God.  That is something that only can happen to a person.

However, most people who say "damn," or "goddamn it," aren't aware of the 
Biblical meaning, the relationship component thereof, or the abundance of 
his grace.  Even those of us who are aware may mumble, "Damn it!" when we 
accidentally drop a quarter down a storm drain -- by which no one means, 
especially in the heat of anger or grind of frustration, that the Almighty 
should condemn storm drains to withering failure.  The Princess fails to 
take the context of the utterance into consideration.

I attempted to answer Roger's question simply, and as someone who is amazed 
at the degree to which some folks will defend imprecatory prayer.  I'm not 
jockeying to be "head theologian" on Vision 2020, and I think that the 
Princess' response had less to do with any concern about right theology than 
with wanting to refute me -- to show that I'm once again "mixed up."

I stand by my answer and wish the Princess a lovely day.

keely

From: "Taro Tanaka" <taro_tanaka at hotmail.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Biblical question
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:01:43 +0000

Keely's response below reveals a few misunderstandings, which I shall
endeavor to correct. First, to be damned by God is to be subject to eternal
punishment by being cut off from life in Him. The whole concept of damnation
is inseparable from a personal relationship with God, or rather, the lack
thereof. This is clear from some verses in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25, which
are worth quoting here at some length:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many
will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful
works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,
ye that work iniquity . . . When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and
all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his
glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and
he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then
shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world . . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from
me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
.. . . and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the 
righteous
into life eternal."

Note that God says here to the damned, "I never knew you." He refuses to
recognize or have anything to do with them, and such eternal separation from
God is their punishment: that constitutes the main "feature" of eternal
death and damnation.

So one thing which follows from this is, institutions are not damned by God.
God does not have relationships with institutions; rather, he has
relationships with persons. Institutions, whether established by God or by
man, are frameworks for interpersonal relationships, but God does not have
relationships with institutions, and therefore they cannot be damned by
being cut off, except perhaps insofar as we might use the word "institution"
to describe a group of persons. Persons are capable of being damned.

Keely's next point about Joe Blow is half right and half in error. The part
that is right is, we are never to call for the damnation of any human being.
All human beings except for Jesus of Nazareth are sinners and, in and of
themselves, are worthy of damnation. But God does not damn all people. He
graciously saves many people, and the graciousness of that salvation cannot
be over-emphasized. No Christian has a right to dictate to God that He
should damn anyone. It is enough to know that some people are damned, and to
fear and tremble. It is enough to know that insofar as we have a living
relationship with God, it is purely because we are the recipients of grace,
without which we would be every bit as damned as Judas Iscariot. So who are
we to call on God to damn anyone? Here is an interesting pertinent Bible
verse: "Yet Michael the archangel [another name for the pre-incarnate
Jesus], when contending with the devil . . . durst not bring against him a
railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Until the time for
judgment comes, even Jesus, even when speaking with Satan himself, does not
damn him, but says simply "the Lord rebuke thee."

And I may be wrong but I cannot recall a single place in the Bible where any
person in a living relationship with God is shown actually praying for the
damnation of another person.

And this brings me to the part of Keely's statement that is very wrong: the
notion that imprecatory prayer has anything to do with calling for the
damnation of other people. That is a complete mischaracterization and
misrepresentation of imprecatory prayer. Imprecatory prayer is defensible;
praying for someone's damnation is not.

How is this for a prayer? --

"O father in Heaven, look at wicked, oppressive Joe Blow over there. I ask
you to grant him his every desire. Please give him great wealth, perfect
health, long life, handsome good looks, popularity, success, fame, respect
among men, and anything else he might desire. Because I know that the one
thing he does not desire is a living relationship with You, O Father, and if
You grant him his every desire in this life, he will never seek You, he will
never be brought to repentance, and some day at the ripe old age of 150,
without a care in the world, he will die in his sleep with a smile on his
face and then he will be separated from You and suffer damnation and torment
in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. That's what he deserves, and that's
what I ask You to give him, so please see that his every desire is fulfilled
so that he will never have the faintest inclination to repent, turn to You,
and be saved."

That is by no means an imprecatory prayer that God wants us to pray.

Imprecatory prayer is nagging God to stop just sitting there on the
sidelines but to get up and deal with the problems that we face down here.
It is asking God to come in judgment, but that is not at all the same as
asking God to come and exercise final, eternal damnatory judgment against
someone. The person who prays an imprecatory prayer is well aware that
damnation is a theoretical outcome of God's judgment. But repentance and
salvation is also a theoretical outcome. And, most importantly, God's
greater glorification and the ultimate advancement of His kingdom is
certainly an outcome that is in view when someone prays imprecatory prayer.
And that is entirely defensible.

-- Princess Sushitushi

"keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

[[ I'm not an expert, but I think it would be correct to say that "goddamn
it!"
is a sinful abuse of God's name, but "Oppression breaks the backs and hearts
of millions in our world.  God, please, damn the institutions that enable it
.. . . " would be an appropriate prayer.  "God, please damn Joe Blow" would
be imprecatory and utterly indefensible. ]]

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

=======================================================
  List services made available by First Step Internet,
  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                http://www.fsr.net
           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

_________________________________________________________________
Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends 
list. 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk