[Vision2020] Repentant Sinner my ass!

Mon Dec 11 08:09:28 PST 2006

Just for your enlightenment Tony, spend a few weeks in Canada.  If you really believe the contents of your last post, you will be utterly horrified by the number of couples you will see between whom there is a great age disparity.  You will be even more horrified to observe that most of these relationships seem to be outwardly happy, of great value to the relaters, and (gasp) of little or no concern to most Canadians.  Even to your worse horror, the same can be said of mixed race, mixed ethnicity, and/or same sex couples.

There is little doubt that Lewinski, cleverly and with some seductive skill, pursued Clinton.  Whether Clinton's obliging her was immoral or how immoral depends on your point of view;  his perjury afterward certainly was.

It is hard for me to see anything resembling abuse in position where one person is more powerful than the other if the one less powerful, who is an experienced adult, is the one who desires and initiates the sexual contact.  Clinton took what was attractively and seductively packaged offer.  Given his position, obviously this did not involve well thought-out decisions and consequent actions on his part.

If he had been the one to cleverly and aggressively, using his aura of power, to do the seducing and Lewinski had been a naive innocent with few choices in her life's circumstances, perhaps there could be case made for abuse of circumstances.  However, that was not the case.

I am not surprised, however, that our hypocritical, pseudo-libertarian posters and bloggers claim abuse in the Clinton-Lewinski affair.  Whatever happened to the central tenet of libertarianism -- freedom of choice?  

To those with short memories, the age of sexual freedom was in part initiated and certainly supported and lauded by libertarians -- many of whom rejected traditional marriage vows because of their infringement on freedom of choice.  

Let's face it, some informed adults are attracted to other informed adults more powerful than themselves and visa versa. It would certainly be a denial of freedom of choice to both parties to call immoral or abusive the relationships that ensue, particularly if the relationships are found to be of satisfaction to both parties.  [It could be argued that there is a disparity of power in many, if not most couple relationships.] 

I refer you again to my post discussing the difference in consequences between Clinton's condemnable perjury and Bush's intentionally lying us into a war with horrific consequences now and for years to come.  Even to those that do not give damn about to other than the effects on Americans of the war in Iraq, there is hardly any American who has not suffered adverse consequences of Bush's actions -- some have suffered the ultimate adverse consequence.

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tony 
To: Paul Rumelhart 
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Repentant Sinner my ass!

Paul, It is my belief that when a powerful older person takes advantage of a young and powerless employee, resulting in the permanent destruction of said youngster's reputation, that constitutes abuse.  You are of course free to reach a different conclusion.

My best,     -T
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Rumelhart 
  To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Repentant Sinner my ass!

  Tony,

  You keep trying to frame this as "abuse".  It's not abuse when you have consentual sex with somebody regardless of what form it may take.  I understand not liking the man because he was being adulterous or sexually depraved because of this, but let's not bring such emotionally-charged words as "abuse" into this without some kind of evidence to back it up.

  Paul

  Tony wrote: 
After that last post regarding Clinton's abuse of Monica Lewinski, It 
occurred to me that those with little knowledge of the Clinton fiasco might 
misunderstand my reference to his documented behaviors.  I am concerned that 
some youngsters, unaware of the specifics of Clinton's abuse, might think I 
was using a slang term for the male reproductive organ when I reported that 
Clinton apparently inserted his cigar into intern Lewinski's private spot. 
In the interest of accuracy and out of respect for today's youth and their 
right to an accurate account of history, let me be clear:  Former President 
Clinton was reported to have inserted a cigar, the kind he periodically 
smoked, into the aforementioned intern.  He was also reported to have 
received oral sex while discussing sensitive national security issues with 
congressman via phone.

Boys and girls, the left does not want you to learn what a depraved creep 
Clinton was.  They adore him because he pushed for their political issues 
and causes so they deliberately ignored his abuse of woman.  Said abuse also 
included several accusations or RAPE.  I support the right of today's youth 
to be informed rather than manipulated, so the next time you hear about what 
a great guy ole Clinton was, you can refer to this message for the truth.

Just hit print and thank me later.

Peace out,    -T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
To: <nickgier at adelphia.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Repentant Sinner my ass!

  Just as there will always be those who insisted on abandoning the South
Vietnamese and Cambodians to communist tyranny, there will always be those
who deny the written historical record regarding our liberation of Iraq.

Clinton, a clinical, megalomaniacal psychopath, hasn't a sincere bone in 
his
body and would only consider the views of a minister in a short skirt. 
Bush
rallied the American patriots with his Patton-esque "bring them on."  It 
was
a great piece of leadership, reminiscent of Churchill.  Bush is every bit 
as
intelligent and astute as some socially isolated, outcast egghead on the
Palouse.

The difference between President Bush and clinton is that Bush would have
told Monica to pull her skirt back up and act like a lady.  Clinton, the
juvinile left's beloved icon, humiliated her for LIFE when he inserted his
cigar in her vagina and after otherwise violating his trust, then DENIED 
his
responsibility before her and the American People.  Clinton was and will
always be a sick male of BAD CHARACTER, undeserving of respect even from
those willing to enable his abuse of woman in order to realize their own
selfish political goals.

"In America, anybody can be a college professor.  It's one of the risks 
you
take."       -T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <nickgier at adelphia.net>
To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Repentant Sinner Swarmed in Hanoi

    Greetings:

Just as there will always be those who say that the Johnson did not lie
and deceive (Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, one specific), there will always
be those who will always say that the Bush administration did not
misrepresent and deceive about Iraq, even when the facts are clear that 
it
did.

Clinton admitted that he had made a mistake and sought forgiveness and
repentence with his minister.  Bush only regrets that he said "bring them
on," but nothing else.  He said that it was not a very sophisticated 
thing
to say, but when has this simpleton ever said anything of substance?

This is the great moral difference between these two men, and that is why
Clinton is admired around the world. and in two years Bush will not dare
appear in a completely public forum in any capital in the world. Crawford
will be a nice refuge for him, and many will say "good riddance," an
immature and ill informed man who became president because of his name.

World opinion is a powerful force and it will take decades for us to
rebuild our reputation and credibility in the world.

Nick Gier

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