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<DIV><FONT size=4>Just for your enlightenment Tony, s</FONT><FONT size=4>pend a
few weeks in Canada. If you really believe the contents of your last post,
you will be utterly horrified by the number of couples you will see between whom
there is a great age disparity. You will be even more horrified to
observe that most of these relationships seem to be outwardly happy, of
great value to the relaters, and (gasp) of little or no concern to most
Canadians. Even to your worse horror, the same can be said of mixed race,
mixed ethnicity, and/or same sex couples.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>There is little doubt that Lewinski, cleverly and with some
seductive skill, pursued Clinton. Whether Clinton's obliging her was
immoral or how immoral depends on your point of view; his perjury
afterward certainly was.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>It is hard for me to see anything resembling abuse in position
where one person is more powerful than the other if the one less powerful, who
is an experienced adult, is the one who desires and initiates the sexual
contact. Clinton took what was attractively and seductively packaged
offer. Given his position, obviously this did not involve well
thought-out decisions and consequent actions on his part.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If he had been the one to cleverly and aggressively, using his
aura of power, to do the seducing and Lewinski had been a naive innocent with
few choices in her life's circumstances, perhaps there could be case made for
abuse of circumstances. However, that was not the case.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I am not surprised, however, that our hypocritical,
pseudo-libertarian posters and bloggers claim abuse in the Clinton-Lewinski
affair. Whatever happened to the central tenet of libertarianism --
freedom of choice? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To those with short memories, the age of sexual freedom was in
part initiated and certainly supported and lauded by libertarians -- many of
whom rejected traditional marriage vows because of their infringement on
freedom of choice. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Let's face it, some informed adults are attracted to other
informed adults more powerful than themselves and visa versa. It would
certainly be a denial of freedom of choice to both parties to call immoral or
abusive the relationships that ensue, particularly if the relationships are
found to be of satisfaction to both parties. [It could be argued that
there is a disparity of power in many, if not most couple
relationships.] </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I refer you again to my post discussing the difference in
consequences between Clinton's condemnable perjury and Bush's intentionally
lying us into a war with horrific consequences now and for years to
come. Even to those that do not give damn about to other than
the effects on Americans of the war in Iraq, there is hardly any American who
has not suffered adverse consequences of Bush's actions -- some have suffered
the ultimate adverse consequence.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=tonytime@clearwire.net href="mailto:tonytime@clearwire.net">Tony</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 10, 2006 8:30 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Repentant Sinner my ass!</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Paul, It is my belief that when a powerful older
person takes advantage of a young and powerless employee, resulting in the
permanent destruction of said youngster's reputation, that constitutes
abuse. You are of course free to reach a different
conclusion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My best, -T</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Repentant
Sinner my ass!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Tony,<BR><BR>You keep trying to frame this as "abuse".
It's not abuse when you have consentual sex with somebody regardless of what
form it may take. I understand not liking the man because he was being
adulterous or sexually depraved because of this, but let's not bring such
emotionally-charged words as "abuse" into this without some kind of evidence
to back it up.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Tony wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid002501c71c98$1399ed10$2b88e942@simpson type="cite"><PRE wrap="">After that last post regarding Clinton's abuse of Monica Lewinski, It
occurred to me that those with little knowledge of the Clinton fiasco might
misunderstand my reference to his documented behaviors. I am concerned that
some youngsters, unaware of the specifics of Clinton's abuse, might think I
was using a slang term for the male reproductive organ when I reported that
Clinton apparently inserted his cigar into intern Lewinski's private spot.
In the interest of accuracy and out of respect for today's youth and their
right to an accurate account of history, let me be clear: Former President
Clinton was reported to have inserted a cigar, the kind he periodically
smoked, into the aforementioned intern. He was also reported to have
received oral sex while discussing sensitive national security issues with
congressman via phone.
Boys and girls, the left does not want you to learn what a depraved creep
Clinton was. They adore him because he pushed for their political issues
and causes so they deliberately ignored his abuse of woman. Said abuse also
included several accusations or RAPE. I support the right of today's youth
to be informed rather than manipulated, so the next time you hear about what
a great guy ole Clinton was, you can refer to this message for the truth.
Just hit print and thank me later.
Peace out, -T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:tonytime@clearwire.net"><tonytime@clearwire.net></A>
To: <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:nickgier@adelphia.net"><nickgier@adelphia.net></A>
Cc: <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></A>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Repentant Sinner my ass!
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Just as there will always be those who insisted on abandoning the South
Vietnamese and Cambodians to communist tyranny, there will always be those
who deny the written historical record regarding our liberation of Iraq.
Clinton, a clinical, megalomaniacal psychopath, hasn't a sincere bone in
his
body and would only consider the views of a minister in a short skirt.
Bush
rallied the American patriots with his Patton-esque "bring them on." It
was
a great piece of leadership, reminiscent of Churchill. Bush is every bit
as
intelligent and astute as some socially isolated, outcast egghead on the
Palouse.
The difference between President Bush and clinton is that Bush would have
told Monica to pull her skirt back up and act like a lady. Clinton, the
juvinile left's beloved icon, humiliated her for LIFE when he inserted his
cigar in her vagina and after otherwise violating his trust, then DENIED
his
responsibility before her and the American People. Clinton was and will
always be a sick male of BAD CHARACTER, undeserving of respect even from
those willing to enable his abuse of woman in order to realize their own
selfish political goals.
"In America, anybody can be a college professor. It's one of the risks
you
take." -T
----- Original Message -----
From: <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:nickgier@adelphia.net"><nickgier@adelphia.net></A>
To: "J Ford" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:privatejf32@hotmail.com"><privatejf32@hotmail.com></A>
Cc: <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></A>
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Repentant Sinner Swarmed in Hanoi
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Greetings:
Just as there will always be those who say that the Johnson did not lie
and deceive (Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, one specific), there will always
be those who will always say that the Bush administration did not
misrepresent and deceive about Iraq, even when the facts are clear that
it
did.
Clinton admitted that he had made a mistake and sought forgiveness and
repentence with his minister. Bush only regrets that he said "bring them
on," but nothing else. He said that it was not a very sophisticated
thing
to say, but when has this simpleton ever said anything of substance?
This is the great moral difference between these two men, and that is why
Clinton is admired around the world. and in two years Bush will not dare
appear in a completely public forum in any capital in the world. Crawford
will be a nice refuge for him, and many will say "good riddance," an
immature and ill informed man who became president because of his name.
World opinion is a powerful force and it will take decades for us to
rebuild our reputation and credibility in the world.
Nick Gier
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