[Vision2020] Heirdoug's hero

[Ralph Nielsen]

heirdoug at netscape.net
Thu Dec 7 12:06:01 PST 2006

DOUG
Yes, I do claim that the genealogy in Matthew is the Word of God and is
true. I also claim that the genealogy in Luke is also the Word of God
and is true. To believe that any part of God's Word to be false is to
blaspheme the living God, something that you and your so called "honest
scholars" have come to a consensus on.

RALPH
I have a feeling that Doug is hiding something here. Both  
genealogies, in Matthew and Luke, are of Jesus via Joseph. But they  
can't both be true, so fundies play the dishonest game of pretending  
that the one in Luke is of Mary, not Joseph. But some other fundies  
make believe that the one in Matthew is of Mary and the one in Luke  
is of Joseph. Is someone blaspheming the living God?

DOUG
I don't agree with you that neither David nor his baby went to heaven.
To quote David, "Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he
will not return to me." David went to his resurrection and as an Old
Testament saint, is in the presence of the Lord. David said "I will go
to him" that would mean that the baby went to his resurrection and is
in the presence of the Lord as well. Ralph, you are starting to sound
like a Sadducee.

RALPH
Doug can't show us a single person in the entire Hebrew Bible (OT)  
who died and went to heaven. The conservative Sadducees were correct  
in this matter.

DOUG
Vicarious punishment is perfectly moral in these Bible days as well. We
have never left the Bible days. The judgments and blessings of God do
not change for God is unchangeable.

RALPH
We'll see how far you can carry the argument that the God of the  
Bible is unchangeable. In the beginning of biblical human history  
Yahweh God told Adam and Eve, "By the sweat of your face you shall  
eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were  
taken; you are dust, and to dust you will return" (Genesis 3:19). And  
to make sure that Adam and Eve would not be able to return to the  
garden of Eden, eat of the tree of life, and live forever like God,  
he drove them out of the garden and placed cherubim to guard the way  
to the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).

DOUG
The sins that you commit could be
the judgment God is placing upon your Grand parents. Not having a name
or posterity to carry it on is also God’s judgment.

RALPH
Now Doug is twisting the word of God. It could be that I am paying  
God's penalty for something my great-grandparents did, but nowhere in  
the Bible have I read that sins that I might commit are the penalty  
for what they did. For a summary of how God runs his world read  
Deuteronomy 28. Nowhere does God promise any kind of life after  
death, either for reward in a heaven or punishment in a hell. As the  
Preacher wrote in the word of God, "The living know that they will  
die, but the dead  know nothing; they have no more reward, and even  
the memory of them is lost" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

DOUG
Ralph you amaze me. You choose to speak the truth in the midst of your
lies. When God arranged, at the beginning of time, to have his only
begotten son crucified, in the fullness of time, He was only thinking
of you. It was for your sins that Jesus was born. It was for your sins
that He lived a sinless life. It was for your sins that He died and was
buried. And it was for your justification that He was raised from the
dead on the third day.

RALPH
It would be nice if Doug would tell us what lies I have told. I am  
curious to know. As for vicarious punishment, we read, "But he  
[David] did not put to death the children of the murderers; according  
to what is written in the book of the law of Moses, where the LORD  
commanded, 'The parents shall not be put to death for the children,  
or the children be put to death for the parents; but all shall be put  
to death for their own sins'" (2 Kings 14:6). (That was a long verse,  
Doug.)

DOUG
I am curious about one thing. Were you baptized in the name of the
Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as a child like Nick Gier was?

RALPH
Yes, I was baptized into the Church of Denmark, like Nick's daughter,  
"i Faderens og Sønnens og den Helligaands Navn." But it wore off.



From: nielsen at uidaho.edu
To: Vision2020 at moscow.com

Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:46 AM
Subject: Heirdoug's hero

If Doug's claim that the genealogy in Matthew is historically true,
then the one in Luke is false. Of course, it is possible that both are
false, as honest Christian scholars agree.

I am at a loss to understand what Doug means when he claims that I
"typically" quote Bible verses incompletely. Since the division of the
Bible into chapters and verses is quite arbitrary--they do not appear
in the MSS--it is not always necessary to quote verses in full. Since I
was discussing David, not Jesus, my omission was perfectly legitimate.

I take it that Doug agrees with me that neither David nor his baby boy
went to heaven when they died.

Vicarious punishment was considered perfectly moral in Bible days. That
is why the LORD killed David's baby boy for his father's sins. And that
is why, according to the Christian religion, God arranged to have his
own son tortured and killed for the sins of others.

As for which or how many books belong in the Bible and thus constitute
the "Word of God," here again the decision is quite arbitrary. To this
day Christians and Jews cannot agree on this matter. So far be it from
me to argue about it.

Ralph