[Vision2020] Heirdoug's hero

Thu Dec 7 12:06:01 PST 2006

Ralph,

Yes, I do claim that the genealogy in Matthew is the Word of God and is 
true. I also claim that the genealogy in Luke is also the Word of God 
and is true. To believe that any part of God's Word to be false is to 
blaspheme the living God, something that you and your so called "honest 
scholars" have come to a consensus on.

I don't agree with you that neither David nor his baby went to heaven. 
To quote David, "Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he 
will not return to me." David went to his resurrection and as an Old 
Testament saint, is in the presence of the Lord. David said "I will go 
to him" that would mean that the baby went to his resurrection and is 
in the presence of the Lord as well. Ralph, you are starting to sound 
like a Sadducee.

Vicarious punishment is perfectly moral in these Bible days as well. We 
have never left the Bible days. The judgments and blessings of God do 
not change for God is unchangeable. The sins that you commit could be 
the judgment God is placing upon your Grand parents. Not having a name 
or posterity to carry it on is also God’s judgment.

Ralph you amaze me. You choose to speak the truth in the midst of your 
lies. When God arranged, at the beginning of time, to have his only 
begotten son crucified, in the fullness of time, He was only thinking 
of you. It was for your sins that Jesus was born. It was for your sins 
that He lived a sinless life. It was for your sins that He died and was 
buried. And it was for your justification that He was raised from the 
dead on the third day.

I am curious about one thing. Were you baptized in the name of the 
Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as a child like Nick Gier was?

lemeno,
Doug!

-----Original Message-----
From: nielsen at uidaho.edu
To: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Cc: artdeco at moscow.com; heirdoug at netscape.net
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:46 AM
Subject: Heirdoug's hero

If Doug's claim that the genealogy in Matthew is historically true, 
then the one in Luke is false. Of course, it is possible that both are 
false, as honest Christian scholars agree. 

I am at a loss to understand what Doug means when he claims that I 
"typically" quote Bible verses incompletely. Since the division of the 
Bible into chapters and verses is quite arbitrary--they do not appear 
in the MSS--it is not always necessary to quote verses in full. Since I 
was discussing David, not Jesus, my omission was perfectly legitimate. 

I take it that Doug agrees with me that neither David nor his baby boy 
went to heaven when they died. 

Vicarious punishment was considered perfectly moral in Bible days. That 
is why the LORD killed David's baby boy for his father's sins. And that 
is why, according to the Christian religion, God arranged to have his 
own son tortured and killed for the sins of others. 

As for which or how many books belong in the Bible and thus constitute 
the "Word of God," here again the decision is quite arbitrary. To this 
day Christians and Jews cannot agree on this matter. So far be it from 
me to argue about it. 

Ralph 

Art Deco deco at moscow.com 
Thu Dec 7 08:20:08 PST 2006 

Lemon-O, 

Should you be over-taxing your brain like this before having your 
pioneering brain surgery? Should you be demonstrating how much 
functionality your brain has lost? 

[1] 

You claim that Jesus was descended from David according to Matthew in 
your post reproduced below. 

There is a small problem with such a claim besides the truth of the 
lineage statements found in Matthew and the contradictory lineage 
statements found in Luke 

<http://virtualreligion.net/primer/Background/lineage.html>. 

"Descended from" means that there was a whole series of "begettings" 
that started with David and ended with Mary's fruit of the womb, Jesus. 
[I am making the hopeful assumption that you know what "beget" means, 
although evidence from your personal life might be seen to argue 
otherwise.] 

However, the point is simple: If Jesus is descended from David, then 
sly old Joseph must have done some begetting himself with Mary. If not, 
then David's lineage ended with Joseph, not Jesus. So if Jesus is 
descended from David through either of the lineages supplied by Matthew 
or Luke (or any other lineage), the claim of a virgin birth is 
contradicted since in order to be descended from David through Joseph, 
Joseph, like David, must have enjoyed some begetting. 

Choose your poison: Virgin birth or descent from David. Both cannot be 
true, but both could be false. Merry Christmas. 

[2] 

Since your mental acuity has apparently suffered such a piteous decline 
(hence the urgency of the pending operation) from its former below 
average pinnacle, you appeared to have forgotten the concept of Modus 
Ponens. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_Ponens 

Here's how it applies to the story of David: 

[a] If the Bible is completely true, then all statements and logically 
valid derivatives of same found in the Bible are true. 
[b] The Bible in the story of David claims that is it OK to punish 
someone by hideously torturing and killing some innocent person with no 
moral culpability in the issue, e.g. David's son. 
[c] It is not OK to punish someone by hideously torturing and killing 
some innocent person with no moral culpability in the issue. 
_______________________________________________ 
[d] Therefore, there is at least one set of statements and logically 
valid derivatives of same in the Bible which is not true. 
[e] The Bible is not completely true. 

If the Bible is not completely true, then the so far unsolved puzzle 
remains: which parts are true (if any), which parts are not, and how 
can it be decided beyond a reasonable doubt and beyond fantasy which is 
which. 

[Doug, I hope you do not mind the use of color above. They say that 
some who suffer from your condition can attend and understand better if 
the material they are presented with is written using crayons.] 

Again all of us hope that your brain surgery will be a success. 
However, you may not know it, but operations done near or during the 
holiday season have a lower success rate and a much greater mortality 
rate. But if you live and are able to write coherently, please let us 
know when and where to send the get well cards. In the meantime you 
would do well to avoid overtaxing your brain and embarrassing yourself 
further. 

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox) 
deco at moscow.com 

PS: Is any of your medical expenses going to be paid for by the Wilson 
& Family's Christless Crackpot Cult & Cash Machine? If not, then maybe 
a fund raising raffle could be held at the Corner Club. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <heirdoug at netscape.net> 
To: <nielsen at uidaho.edu>; <Vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 4:39 PM 
Subject: [Vision2020] Heirdoug's hero 

> 
> Ralph I did read carefully. 
> 
> You seem to think that by pointing out the sins of another that I 
will 
> be shamed and embarrassed by what the Spirit of the Living God states 
> in the Bible. I will never be embarrassed by all of what God says, be 
> they red or black letters. 
> 
> From the genealogy in Matthew we see that God is not embarrassed 
either 
> using David’s sins to bring about the redemption of Mankind… “The 
> record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the 
son 
> of Abraham: … Jesse was the father of David the king. David was the 
> father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah.” 
> 
> And now the passage that you cited: "After He had removed him, He 
> raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He (God) also 
> testified and said, 'I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER 
> MY HEART, who will do all My will.” 
> 
> But you stopped short, as you typically do, from quoting the rest of 
> the verse… “From the descendants of this man, according to promise, 
God 
> has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus”. 
> 
> You should always quote all of the verse in it’s [sic] context and 
not be so 
> embarrassed by the truth that God's Word gives! 
> 
> lemeno, Doug! 
> 
> 
>= 

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