[Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!

Tony Simpson tonytime at clearwire.net
Thu Aug 24 07:10:41 PDT 2006


Hi Joe,

I see the distinction you're concerned about, it's just that I think flag 
burning gives significant comfort to America's enemies.  That probably 
constitutes harm.  Still, one could probably make that argument about ANY 
(genuine) speech dissenting from the official American position.  I can 
certainly look around and find more prevalent concerns than flag burning, 
and grow tired of the thread, sooo......

Later, --T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "Tony Simpson" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!


> The key behind Bill's point is the difference between harm and offense. 
> Robbery is a harm, flag burning is at most an offense. Sure you can tell 
> some detailed story about some "harm"  somewhere that is a "result" of the 
> flag burning but there is no more of a connection here than there is 
> between the lame comments of some folks on the V and my inability to sleep 
> at night.
>
> Vague laws against certain forms of political expression, in this case 
> flag burning, may make us feel good but they also open the door for more 
> general and restrictive laws. The only way to prevent this is to have our 
> laws be crisp and clean. Clear harms to clear persons should be the 
> standard.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- Tony Simpson <tonytime at clearwire.net> wrote:
>
> =============
> Ah but Bill, how can you be so intolerant of robbery?  Surely you are 
> aware
> that robbery is not a crime, but merely the perpetrator's expression of 
> his
> distaste for capitalism and his support of wealth redistribution.  And of
> course, expression is protected under the constitution, so as repulsive as
> we may find robbery, we are using poor reasoning in calling for its
> abolition.
>
> --T
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
> To: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>; <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>;
> <thansen at moscow.com>; <joekc at adelphia.net>; <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
>
>
>> The crucial difference is that the rainbow flag was first stolen, then
>> trashed.  The issue was not free speech, but robbery.
>> BL
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>> To: <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; <thansen at moscow.com>;
>> <joekc at adelphia.net>; <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 8:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
>>
>>
>>> Donovan,
>>>
>>> Wasn't that flag thrown in the trash can and not burned? I remember the
>> flag
>>> still in tact when I saw it.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>> >From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>>> >To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>, "'Joe Campbell'"
>> <joekc at adelphia.net>,
>>> >        "'Tony Simpson'" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>>> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
>>> >Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
>>> >
>>> >Tom,
>>> >
>>> >  If someone burns a flag of a country, nation or group of  people,  I
>>> >consider it an act of aggression and/or  ill will  towards those 
>>> >people.
>> I
>>> >responded that way when several of my  senatorial colleagues in ASUI
>> burned
>>> >the Gay Straight Alliance Flag--as  did many others.
>>> >
>>> >  If someone protests against a war or  action of the US within the US
>> they
>>> >can do so without burning a flag,  spitting on US Soldiers, or
>>> >destroying
>>> >public or private property.
>>> >
>>> >   So yes, I think someone that burns a US Flag should be watched more
>>> >carefully, and I think they are people that are disrespecting the
>>> >United
>>> >States and all the people in it. I consider an attack on a US  Naval
>>> >ROTC
>>> >Building an attack on the US--especially one that my Dad was  attending
>>> >during the 60s.
>>> >
>>> >   Best,
>>> >
>>> >   _DJA
>>> >
>>> >Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:              v\:*
>>> >{behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:*
>>> >{behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
>>> >     st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }                    Arnold
>>> >stated:
>>> >
>>> >     "It is easier to find those that  hate and wish real harm to the
>>> >United    States if you allow them to burn a flag."
>>> >
>>> >     Are you suggesting that all those students  and anti-war 
>>> > protestors
>>> >during Vietnam  hated and wished real harm to the United States,
>>> >Arnold?
>>> >
>>> >     Campuses (just to name a few) at:
>>> >
>>> >     University of Virginia
>>> >
>>> >     University of California at Berkeley
>>> >
>>> >     Kent State University
>>> >
>>> >     UNIVERSITY OF IDAHO
>>> >     (Be careful here, Arnold.  My wife attended UI during the late
>>> > 60's.
>>> >Yes.  There were  major demonstrations which included (on one occasion
>>> >burning a US  flag and an attempt to burn down the Navy ROTC building)
>>> >
>>> >     Thoughts?
>>> >
>>> >     Tom Hansen
>>> >
>>> >             ********************************************
>>> >
>>> >   "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
>>> >
>>> >   - Thomas Jefferson
>>> >
>>> >   ********************************************
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >---------------------------------
>>> >
>>> >     From:  vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>>> >[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
>>> >   Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:26  PM
>>> >   To: Joe Campbell; Tony Simpson
>>> >   Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> >   Subject: Re: [Vision2020]  Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's
>> ass!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >     "I think that the question of whether flag burning is or is not
>>> >speech
>>> >   is not so  clear." Joe Campbell
>>> >
>>> >   Isn't it  that every American Flag eventually gets burned?
>>> >
>>> >   A flag is  speech, that is all it is, how you burn it and for what
>>> >reasons I think
>>> >   speaks  volumes.
>>> >
>>> >   It is easier  to find those that hate and wish real harm to the
>>> >   United States if you allow them to  burn a flag.
>>> >
>>> >   Best,
>>> >
>>> >   _DJA
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >---------------------------------
>>> >  All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
>>> > done
>>> >faster.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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