[Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
keely emerinemix
kjajmix1 at msn.com
Wed Aug 23 17:44:38 PDT 2006
Yikes.
Methinks I need to edit a little better. Sorry, all.
keely
From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, london at moscow.com, mattd2107 at hotmail.com,
thansen at moscow.com, joekc at adelphia.net, tonytime at clearwire.net
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:20:01 -0700
I think the difference between burning the American flag -- which I condemn
almost as heartily as I oppose an amendment making that illegal -- and hate
crimes is simple.
When an African-American couple, for example, finds a burning cross on their
front line, they will rightly see that as not only offensive but
threatening, as this symbol of racial hatred has been ignited on their own
lawn, and their race likely is hated by those who lighted the cross. A
person or persons, then, who hates African-Americans, therefore, has
demonstrated that hatred on the property of an African-American couple, and
it's reasonable for the couple to feel threatened -- even if, ultimately, no
actual, physical harm comes to them.
When the Gay-Straight Alliance flag was burned, it was taken from the GSA
office, where real, actual GLBT students, the objects of disgust by some,
congregate regularly. A GLBT person, then, knows that someone knows where
they are, who they are, and has demonstrated a willingness to show their
disgust in a threatening, if not illegal, by stealing and then burning the
flag that symbolizes their sexuality. Not even a "hey, no kidding -- we're
gonna stop here" note pinned to the flag would assuage the legitimate fear
that real, actual members of the GLBT community would feel.
When someone burns an American flag at a rally on the Capitol steps, no
real, actual PERSON is threatened or even addressed. It's one thing, say,
to be an American family in Beirut who awakens to a burning American flag on
their front lawn -- that, to me, indicates a specific threat to a specific
target. But even if 360 million individual Americans were outraged by a
public flag-burning, unless a particular, identifiable, person were
threatened by someone who had the power and intent to deliver on the threat,
it remains simply an ugly, reckless, stupid -- but not inherently illegal --
act.
There are numerous reasons to oppose a flag-burning amendment, and faulty
logic employed to justify an amendment while denying the reality of hate
crimes simply reveals a paucity of legitimate argument.
keely
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Bill London <london at moscow.com>, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>,
thansen at moscow.com, joekc at adelphia.net, tonytime at clearwire.net
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:04:09 -0700 (PDT)
Bill,
The chief complains I heard from students was not that a $25 piece of
property was taken for a student organization and put to an open flame, but
the meaning and intent of those behind that committed, or attempted to
commit, the action. Although property theft was an issue just as burning
without a permit is an issue with a cross burning it is a distant secondary
issue.
Best,
_DJA
Bill London <london at moscow.com> wrote: The crucial difference is that the
rainbow flag was first stolen, then
trashed. The issue was not free speech, but robbery.
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Decker"
To: ; ;
;
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
> Donovan,
>
> Wasn't that flag thrown in the trash can and not burned? I remember the
flag
> still in tact when I saw it.
>
> Matt
>
>
> >From: Donovan Arnold
> >To: Tom Hansen , "'Joe Campbell'"
,
> > "'Tony Simpson'"
> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's ass!
> >Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Tom,
> >
> > If someone burns a flag of a country, nation or group of people, I
> >consider it an act of aggression and/or ill will towards those
people.
I
> >responded that way when several of my senatorial colleagues in ASUI
burned
> >the Gay Straight Alliance Flag--as did many others.
> >
> > If someone protests against a war or action of the US within the US
they
> >can do so without burning a flag, spitting on US Soldiers, or
destroying
> >public or private property.
> >
> > So yes, I think someone that burns a US Flag should be watched more
> >carefully, and I think they are people that are disrespecting the
United
> >States and all the people in it. I consider an attack on a US Naval
ROTC
> >Building an attack on the US--especially one that my Dad was attending
> >during the 60s.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > _DJA
> >
> >Tom Hansen wrote: v\:*
> >{behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:*
> >{behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
> > st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Arnold
> >stated:
> >
> > "It is easier to find those that hate and wish real harm to the
> >United States if you allow them to burn a flag."
> >
> > Are you suggesting that all those students and anti-war
protestors
> >during Vietnam hated and wished real harm to the United States,
Arnold?
> >
> > Campuses (just to name a few) at:
> >
> > University of Virginia
> >
> > University of California at Berkeley
> >
> > Kent State University
> >
> > UNIVERSITY OF IDAHO
> > (Be careful here, Arnold. My wife attended UI during the late
60's.
> >Yes. There were major demonstrations which included (on one occasion
> >burning a US flag and an attempt to burn down the Navy ROTC building)
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Tom Hansen
> >
> > ********************************************
> >
> > "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
> >
> > - Thomas Jefferson
> >
> > ********************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> >[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
> > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:26 PM
> > To: Joe Campbell; Tony Simpson
> > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Celebrate freedom, kick a flag--burner's
ass!
> >
> >
> > "I think that the question of whether flag burning is or is not
> >speech
> > is not so clear." Joe Campbell
> >
> > Isn't it that every American Flag eventually gets burned?
> >
> > A flag is speech, that is all it is, how you burn it and for what
> >reasons I think
> > speaks volumes.
> >
> > It is easier to find those that hate and wish real harm to the
> > United States if you allow them to burn a flag.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > _DJA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> > All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
done
> >faster.
>
>
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