[Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
Joe Campbell
joekc at adelphia.net
Wed Aug 23 08:11:45 PDT 2006
Matt,
Sounds like a great trip! A friend of mine is starting a similar 8 day trip tomorrow. I've done some day trips but never an extended one.
Some thoughts on your thoughts below.
1. I don't think that prohibitions against buring the cross have anything to do with protecting it. But still you raise a good point. I can't both say that burning a flag should be allowed yet burning a cross should not be allowed. Thankfully, I wouldn't say this! I would allow both. But I don't favor either. I just don't think that the law is the best vehicle to try to get people to do the right thing.
2. If it can be shown that burning the flag will always lead to harm, then that would provide a good basis for making flag burning illegal. I doubt that this can be shown though. Certainly, one might predict that a particular flag burning event will lead to harm and this might give one a legal reason for preventing that particular event. But that wouldn't justify preventing all flag burnings. For that one needs some stronger connection between burning and harm.
Further, even in the particular case the connection between the flag burning and the harm is not the sort that one would need in order to justify a law. Certainly you wouldn't say that keeping money and valuable belongings in your house should be illegal because it might lead to the harm of theft. Likewise, if the kind of "retaliation" that you're talking about is, say, shooting a flag burner it seems that it would be easier just to make the shooting illegal and leave the flag burning legal. Afterall, you can have the one without the other. So the harm-connection is not a necessary one, as in the case of theft or assault.
I have more to say but I have to run off to my day-job for now.
Best, Joe
---- Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
=============
Joe,
Im back and had a great four day trip on the Salmon. If you haven't done it
I would highly recomend it. Salmon steaks and margaritas for dinner, yummy.
Anywho, I can't get over this topic. I've seen some pretty silly arguments
for and against it. A few things that pop into mind are:
1. Why is the cross protected by the constitution from being burned, but not
the flag?
2. If the burning ceremony will cause harm to people, through the
demonstration itself, or retaliation, shouldn't the law enforcement stop
that.
Have a couple more but I'll start with that.
Matt
>From: Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net>
>To: Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
>Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 9:53:12 -0700
>
>Matt,
>
>I'm not making any general claims about whether passing laws against X will
>lead to an increase or decrease of folks doing X. I am making a particular
>claim about a particular law and action. Moreover, tt seems that the burden
>of whether a law will or will not deter an action is on the person wishing
>to pass the law. What reason do you have for thinking that it will decrease
>and not increase the incidence of flag burning?
>
>All of this is besides the point, though, for the law clearly compromises
>our constitutional principles of freedom of expression, as Paul suggested.
>Don't you think that those principles are more important than the harm done
>by flag burning? I understand your anger at flag burners but aside from
>this what is the real harm done to our country or its individuals?
>
>I can wait until you get back from rafting for a response. Have a nice
>trip!
>
>--
>Joe Campbell
>
>---- Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>=============
>Joe,
>
>With that theory, if marijauna was to be legalized would the use of it go
>down then? If and only if the flag burning did increase I would tend to
>think that it would only be for a small amount of time. Over time lets say
>a
>year, I would think that it would decrease.
>
>As a nation we need to draw the line what people should and shouldn't do.
>Burning the flag is way over that line.
>
>going rafting so I will continue when I get back
>Matt
>
>
> >From: Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net>
> >To: Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
> >Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 7:42:49 -0700
> >
> >Matt,
> >
> >I agree that burning the flag is wrong, plain and simple. But as Andreas
> >points out, a law against such actions would be counter to both the
> >Constitution and the very principles of freedom on which this country is
> >built. That seems like a much greater wrong.
> >
> >Furthermore, my guess is that, were a law against flag burning passed, it
> >would only increase the number of flag's burned. Does anyone know the
> >number of flags that have been burned in, say, the last year? I bet it is
> >relatively small. But think of how many people would burn flags in
>protest
> >of an anti-flag-burning law.
> >
> >If you could explain to me what purpose we'd achieve by passing such a
>law,
> >I'd be grateful. On the face of it, it seems like a really bad idea.
> >
> >--
> >Joe Campbell
> >
> >---- Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >=============
> >Or it could be that burning the flag is wrong, plain and simple. Maybe
>they
> >are wasting one but Ill take that one day for doing the right thing and
> >fixing what should have done the first time.
> >
> >
> > >From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> > >To: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> > >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] West of Paris, Grand Opening
> > >Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:49:11 -0700
> > >
> > >On 8/17/06, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Mr. London,
> > > >
> > > > And just as they should. Why shouldn't the congress take one day out
> >of
> > > > their schedule in order to make flag burning an offense?
> > >
> > >Because doing so is taking a day out of their schedule to violate or,
> > >alternatively, create exceptions to the Constitution which they have
> > >all sworn to uphold? I don't know. Could be that.
> > >
> > >-- ACS
> > >
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