[Vision2020] To question is certainly sensible.....
Ted Moffett
starbliss at gmail.com
Mon Aug 14 21:19:08 PDT 2006
All-
To have this discussion with no reference to Super String Theory (did I miss
it?) is like discussing
genetic advances in medicine ignoring stem cells:
http://www.mkaku.org/
----
Ted Moffett
On 8/14/06, Tony Simpson <tonytime at clearwire.net> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> Time did not exist before the Big Bang? Why not? Is not time simply a
> human construct? A method by which we reference one incident in relation to
> another?
> The Big Bang the start of "space time"? What is Space time? My
> understanding of the theory is that all existing matter in the universe
> existed in a very dense state at one particular point in, mind you, an
> endless void stretching in all directions. Then, BANG it explodes outward
> and to this day, continues to expand. Presumably at some point the
> expansion will slow, stop and then reverse eventuating in another dense
> collection which would then re explode over and over.....
>
> Well.
>
> Problem is, if the universe is without end at all, how could something
> without ANY perimeter, expand or contract at all? One could theorize that
> the universe is endless in all directions, but that the matter we view in
> its varied forms only exists in our relatively immediate vicinity. Then
> there would be a perimeter providing a point of reference for an expansion
> or contraction. But what of the void which extends, presumably in all
> directions without end? Why would there be a small collection of matter at
> this particular vicinity and not scattered about infinitely as well? Is
> there some other form of matter or void that we haven't the capacity to
> conceive of? And in an infinite expanse filled with an infinite array of
> matter, must there not also be an infinite variety of life forms scattered
> about it? How could there not? We are talking of an infinite universe
> WITHOUT a perimeter. Without any fixed point from which to reference from.
>
> I don't anticipate learning the answers to these questions in this
> lifetime, but it would be fascinating, would it not? For there ARE
> answers. There must be. Would our minds be capable, from their limited
> frame of reference, of grasping those answers?
>
> This post risks becoming as endless as the universe itself, so g'nite all.
>
> Happy contemplating, --Tony
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Friday, August 11, 2006 6:40 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
> The Big Bang, from what I understand, was the start of spacetime, not just
> space. Time did not exist before the Big Bang, so it makes no sense to ask
> what happened before it. The commonly used analogous question is: "what is
> north of the North Pole?"
>
> And, yes, I don't think we'll ever really know the answer to such
> questions. All we can do is study the world around us, hypothesize, make
> predictions, and see if our guesses hold up to scrutiny and observable
> evidence.
>
> Paul
>
> Tony Simpson wrote:
>
> Just curious Paul, What happened 20 minutes before the big bang? There
> can not have been a beginning, could there? Something, in some form must
> have preceded it... certainly at least empty space existed.
>
> Isn't it a little silly of us to think we can ever answer such questions?
> --T----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:02 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
> Unfortunately, the evidence seems to point towards the Big Bang. The
> ratio of hydrogen to helium in the observable universe can be calculated
> based on the conditions that the universe would have had within the first
> five minutes of the Big Bang with a fairly good degree of accuracy. The
> light that was being scattered all around by un-attached electrons and
> protons was predicted to have suddenly been able to shine out in a massive
> wave once the universe cooled to the right amount (about 300,000 years after
> the Big B) and the scattered electrons, protons, and neutrons combined
> together and stopped bouncing the light every which way. It was predicted
> that we would be able to observe this wave of light, highly red-shifted,
> once our technology got better. It was observed and was named the Cosmic
> Microwave Background radiation (CMB). Observed galaxies were more
> red-shifted the farther away they were, which matched the theory. Young
> baby galaxies are found mostly on the fringes of the universe, which you
> would expect based on the theory. Small variations in the CMB were
> predicted because our galaxies could not have clumped together otherwise.
> These variations were eventually found. The theory is consistent with
> General Relativity. There is no evidence for anything being older than 20
> billion years, so if the universe had no beginning, why don't we see things
> older than that? There are others, I'm sure. I'm not a cosmologist, just
> interested in the subject matter.
>
> Anyway, I'll leave Science to study the What, When, Where and How of the
> universe. Theology can have Who and Why.
>
> Paul
>
> g. crabtree wrote:
>
> All of creation the result of a sudden "big bang," the result of nobody
> knows what or everything the result of an omnipotent Creator. Both seem
> improbable but if I have to pick one, I like the idea of a benevolent, if
> somewhat inscrutable God. I know for an absolute fact from youthful
> experimentation that large explosions don't love me. (I'm mighty fond of
> them, however. Talk about your unrequited affection.)
>
> gc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
> To: <deco at moscow.com> <deco at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
>
>
> W,
>
> So according to you, anyone who has a tiny bit of religous faith in them
> is
> pathetically weak? Man I guess the billions that live in this world who
> have
> that faith are weak. Heck I tend to think one who can live their life
> with
> that belief of an unproven higher being as their creator, as more stronger
> than one who can't even fathom that maybe, just maybe something is out
> there.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com> <deco at moscow.com>
> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:46:03 -0700
>
> Dick,
>
> Again your ignorance is appalling.
>
> I am a nonbeliever (not an atheist) which means that I believe the
> evidence
> purporting to establish supernatural claims including religious ones is
> such that the probability of the truth of any such claim is very close to
> zero. I remain open to new, verifiable evidence on the subject. The
> evidence given by the state of the world today is greatly against the
> existence of a benevolent, powerful deity. If such a state is evidence of
> a deity, it is evidence of a sadistic, bumbling one. Any fool who reads
> the news can see this. But you are not just any fool, you are a special
> one.
>
> I am sorry that you are so pathetically weak that you cannot live
> comfortably without your religious fantasies -- some of which appear to be
> crueler than those of Hitler.
>
> W.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dick Sherwin
> To: Vision2020 ; Art Deco
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
> What is appaling to me is your total loyalty to the cult of atheism which
> is little more than a religion of rejection of God.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Art Deco
> To: Vision 2020
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
> Your ignorance is appalling.
>
> W.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dick Sherwin
> To: Art Deco
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 1:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
> I do not condem Christianity, or consider it a cult. You have quoted
>
>
> >from the Old Testament law, which was mitigated by Jesus through
>
>
> atonement.
>
> Christians believe all sins not reiterated from the Old Testament to
> the
> New Testament were atoned for through the blood of Christ.
>
> Sorry, your little rouse was for no effect, unless you can quote to me
>
>
> >from the New Testament where these laws were carried forth from the OT.
>
>
> Dick S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Art Deco
> To: Vision 2020
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
> Dick,
>
> You write:
>
> "I agree, everyone should have the right to worship as they believe,
> so long as their religion does not preach death and destruction on others
> because of their beliefs. "
>
> Do you then roundly and unequivocally condemn the religious cult that
> holds the following views?
>
> W.
>
> http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> "The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the
> wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without
> guidance
> on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of
> judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include
> premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery,
> homosexuality, and cursing one's parents..."
>
>
>
> "In contemporary American jurisprudence, none of these offenses is
> punishable by death, with the occasional exception of murder. The
> magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some
> Christians
> believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that the
> "harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is
> the
> result of the mistaken belief that the Old Testament has no further
> application after the advent of Christ. This is an exegetical problem. Too
> often, it is the result of a sinful view of the criminal. This sin is
> called pity."
>
> "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter,
> the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly
> entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,". . . you shall not
> consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall
> you
> spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him..." [Heresy:
> Beware, ye not of the cult (including unconverted Jews)!]
>
> "If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue
> her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out the hand
> and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye
> shall not pity her..."
>
>
>
> God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the
> criminal.
> If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the
> punishment. Your eye shall not pity. Neither is the repentance of the
> accused relevant to the imposition of the sentence.
>
> "Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has
> decided the matter. The [civil] magistrate, God's minister, is to
> faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not man's... This
> means that we must return to an obedience which confines pity within the
> bounds which God has established for us."
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dick Sherwin
> To: Vision2020 ; Paul Rumelhart
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
> Paul Rumelhart wrote: "Your standards are too low. How about you
> are
> a True American if the ideas of freedom and liberty for all are important
> to you? That includes the freedom to believe whatever religion you wish,
> or none at all."
> ___________________________________________
>
> Personally, I am a little weary of embracing the "whatever religion
> you wish" syndrone. I agree, everyone should have the right to worship as
> they believe, so long as their religion does not preach death and
> destruction on others because of their beliefs. I am tired of the
> so-called "Religion of Peace" and their attempts to acquire maximum kill
> with their terrorist acts.
>
> As I said in my original post,
> "I believe this is apporpriate as well as accurate. I realize there
> are those who don't believe in any of this but to them all I have to say
> is, "Oh well!"
>
> May God bless you, even if you don't believe in Him.
>
> Dick S.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Rumelhart
> To: Vision2020
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
>
>
> That's what it takes to be a True American? Not to be afraid to
> show you are a christian? Not to burn the flag? To respect veterans and
> your elders?
>
> Well, I almost made it. I'm not christian, so apparently I can't
> be
> a True American. Wonderful.
>
> Your standards are too low. How about you are a True American if
> the ideas of freedom and liberty for all are important to you? That
> includes the freedom to believe whatever religion you wish, or none at
> all.
>
> If you support the First Amendment, I would say you are on the path
> to being a "True American". If you care for your rights and the rights of
> others equally, I'd say you are a True American. If you get enraged when
> politicians "game the system", you are a True American.
>
> If you get angry when someone claims they are a "Patriot" when they
> really mean that they blindly support the government or the status quo,
> you
> are a True American. Look up what it really means to be a Patriot
> sometime. Start by imagining the courage it took for the Founding Fathers
> to sign the Declaration of Independence and ponder what would have
> happened
> to each of them if the revolution had failed.
>
> The true values of this country are getting lost in this
> "Christians
> - the World's Only Persecuted Majority" crap. What values that have
> managed to squeak through that mess are wantonly being pulverised by
> Corporate America. I'd say the truest sign of whether or not you are a
> True American is if you have had it up to here with all the crap that has
> happened in the last couple of decades.
>
> Paul
>
> Dick Sherwin wrote:
> I believe this is apporpriate as well as accurate. I realize
> there are those who don't believe in any of this but to them all I have to
> say is, "Oh well!"
>
> Dick S.
>
>
> It is time to change from REDNECK humor to TRUE AMERICAN
> Humor! Only I don't see it as Humor, but the correct way to LIVE YOUR
> LIFE ! If you feel the same, pass this on to your True American
> friends.
> Ya'll know who ya' are...
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: It never occurred to you to
> be
> offended by the phrase, "One nation, under God."
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You've never protested about
> seeing the 10 Commandments posted in public places.
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You still say "Christmas"
> instead of "Winter Festival."
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You bow your head when someone
> prays.
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You stand and place your hand
> over your heart when they play the National Anthem.
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You treat Viet Nam vets with
> great respect, and always have.
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You've never burned an
> American
> flag.
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You know what you believe and
> you aren't afraid to say so, no matter who is listening.
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You respect your elders and
> expect your kids to do the same.
>
> You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You'd give your last dollar to
> a friend.
>
> If you got this email from me, it is because I believe that you,
> like me, have just enough TRUE AMERICAN in you to have the same
> beliefs as those talked about in this email.
>
> God Bless the U S A ! and may the U.S.A. BEGIN TO PRAISE
> AND
> WORSHIP GOD the way we used to!!!
>
>
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