[Vision2020] You might be a real American

Tony Simpson tonytime at clearwire.net
Fri Aug 11 11:18:24 PDT 2006


Just curious Paul, What happened 20 minutes before the big bang?  There can not have been a beginning, could there?  Something, in some form must have preceded it...  certainly at least empty space existed.

Isn't it a little silly of us to think we can ever answer such questions?
--T----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Rumelhart 
  To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American


  Unfortunately, the evidence seems to point towards the Big Bang.  The ratio of hydrogen to helium in the observable universe can be calculated based on the conditions that the universe would have had within the first five minutes of the Big Bang with a fairly good degree of accuracy.  The light that was being scattered all around by un-attached electrons and protons was predicted to have suddenly been able to shine out in a massive wave once the universe cooled to the right amount (about 300,000 years after the Big B) and the scattered electrons, protons, and neutrons combined together and stopped bouncing the light every which way.  It was predicted that we would be able to observe this wave of light, highly red-shifted, once our technology got better.  It was observed and was named the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB).  Observed galaxies were more red-shifted the farther away they were, which matched the theory.  Young baby galaxies are found mostly on the fringes of the universe, which you would expect based on the theory.  Small variations in the CMB were predicted because our galaxies could not have clumped together otherwise.  These variations were eventually found.  The theory is consistent with General Relativity.  There is no evidence for anything being older than 20 billion years, so if the universe had no beginning, why don't we see things older than that?  There are others, I'm sure.  I'm not a cosmologist, just interested in the subject matter.

  Anyway, I'll leave Science to study the What, When, Where and How of the universe.  Theology can have Who and Why.

  Paul

  g. crabtree wrote: 
All of creation the result of a sudden "big bang," the result of nobody 
knows what or everything the result of an omnipotent Creator. Both seem 
improbable but if I have to pick one, I like the idea of a benevolent, if 
somewhat inscrutable God. I know for an absolute fact from youthful 
experimentation that large explosions don't love me. (I'm mighty fond of 
them, however. Talk about your unrequited affection.)

gc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>
To: <deco at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American


  W,

So according to you, anyone who has a tiny bit of religous faith in them 
is
pathetically weak? Man I guess the billions that live in this world who 
have
that faith  are weak. Heck I tend to think one who can live their life 
with
that belief of an unproven higher being as their creator, as more stronger
than one who can't even fathom that maybe, just maybe something is out
there.

Matt

    From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:46:03 -0700

Dick,

Again your ignorance is appalling.

I am a nonbeliever (not an atheist) which means that I believe the 
evidence
purporting to establish supernatural claims including religious ones is
such that the probability of the truth of any such claim is very close to
zero.  I remain open to new, verifiable evidence on the subject.  The
evidence given by the state of the world today is greatly against the
existence of a benevolent, powerful deity.  If such a state is evidence of
a deity, it is evidence of a sadistic, bumbling one.  Any fool who reads
the news can see this.  But you are not just any fool, you are a special
one.

I am sorry that you are so pathetically weak that you cannot live
comfortably without your religious fantasies -- some of which appear to be
crueler than those of Hitler.

W.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Sherwin
To: Vision2020 ; Art Deco
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American


What is appaling to me is your total loyalty to the cult of atheism which
is little more than a religion of rejection of God.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Art Deco
  To: Vision 2020
  Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:21 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American


  Your ignorance is appalling.

  W.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dick Sherwin
  To: Art Deco
  Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 1:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American


  I do not condem Christianity, or consider it a cult.  You have quoted
      >from the Old Testament law, which was mitigated by Jesus through 
    atonement.

  Christians believe all sins not reiterated from the Old Testament to 
the
New Testament were atoned for through the blood of Christ.

  Sorry, your little rouse was for no effect, unless you can quote to me
      >from the New Testament where these laws were carried forth from the OT.
      Dick S.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Art Deco
    To: Vision 2020
    Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:24 AM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American


    Dick,

    You write:

    "I agree, everyone should have the right to worship as they believe,
so long as their religion does not preach death and destruction on others
because of their beliefs. "

    Do you then roundly and unequivocally condemn the religious cult that
holds the following views?

    W.

    http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm





    "The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the
wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without 
guidance
on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of
judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include
premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery,
homosexuality, and cursing one's parents..."



    "In contemporary American jurisprudence, none of these offenses is
punishable by death, with the occasional exception of murder. The
magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some 
Christians
believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that the
"harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is 
the
result of the mistaken belief that the Old Testament has no further
application after the advent of Christ. This is an exegetical problem. Too
often, it is the result of a sinful view of the criminal. This sin is
called pity."

    "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter,
the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly
entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,". . . you shall not
consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall 
you
spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him..."  [Heresy:
Beware, ye not of the cult (including unconverted Jews)!]

    "If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue
her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out the hand
and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye
shall not pity her..."



    God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the 
criminal.
If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the
punishment. Your eye shall not pity. Neither is the repentance of the
accused relevant to the imposition of the sentence.

    "Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has
decided the matter. The [civil] magistrate, God's minister, is to
faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not man's...  This
means that we must return to an obedience which confines pity within the
bounds which God has established for us."



    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Dick Sherwin
    To: Vision2020 ; Paul Rumelhart
    Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:51 AM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American


    Paul Rumelhart wrote:  "Your standards are too low.  How about you 
are
a True American if the ideas of freedom and liberty for all are important
to you?  That includes the freedom to believe whatever religion you wish,
or none at all."
    ___________________________________________

    Personally, I am a little weary of embracing the "whatever religion
you wish" syndrone.  I agree, everyone should have the right to worship as
they believe, so long as their religion does not preach death and
destruction on others because of their beliefs.  I am tired of the
so-called "Religion of Peace" and their attempts to acquire maximum kill
with their terrorist acts.

    As I said in my original post,
    "I believe this is apporpriate as well as accurate.  I realize there
are those who don't believe in any of this but to them all I have to say
is, "Oh well!"

    May God bless you, even if you don't believe in Him.

    Dick S.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Paul Rumelhart
      To: Vision2020
      Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:35 AM
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American


      That's what it takes to be a True American?  Not to be afraid to
show you are a christian?  Not to burn the flag?  To respect veterans and
your elders?

      Well, I almost made it.  I'm not christian, so apparently I can't 
be
a True American.  Wonderful.

      Your standards are too low.  How about you are a True American if
the ideas of freedom and liberty for all are important to you?  That
includes the freedom to believe whatever religion you wish, or none at 
all.

      If you support the First Amendment, I would say you are on the path
to being a "True American".  If you care for your rights and the rights of
others equally, I'd say you are a True American.  If you get enraged when
politicians "game the system", you are a True American.

      If you get angry when someone claims they are a "Patriot" when they
really mean that they blindly support the government or the status quo, 
you
are a True American.  Look up what it really means to be a Patriot
sometime.  Start by imagining the courage it took for the Founding Fathers
to sign the Declaration of Independence and ponder what would have 
happened
to each of them if the revolution had failed.

      The true values of this country are getting lost in this 
"Christians
- the World's Only Persecuted Majority" crap.  What values that have
managed to squeak through that mess are wantonly being pulverised by
Corporate America.  I'd say the truest sign of whether or not you are a
True American is if you have had it up to here with all the crap that has
happened in the last couple of decades.

      Paul

      Dick Sherwin wrote:
        I believe this is apporpriate as well as accurate.  I realize
there are those who don't believe in any of this but to them all I have to
say is, "Oh well!"

        Dick S.


        It is time to  change from REDNECK  humor to   TRUE  AMERICAN
Humor! Only I don't see it as Humor, but the correct way to   LIVE YOUR
LIFE !  If  you feel the same, pass this on to your True  American 
friends.
 Ya'll know who ya' are...

        You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if:   It  never occurred to you to 
be
offended by the phrase, "One nation, under  God."

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if:  You've never protested about
seeing the 10 Commandments posted in  public  places.

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You  still say "Christmas"
instead of "Winter Festival."

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You  bow your head when someone
prays.

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You  stand and place your hand
over your heart when   they  play the National Anthem.

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You  treat Viet  Nam  vets with
great respect, and always have.

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You've  never burned an 
American
flag.

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You  know what you believe and
you aren't afraid to say so, no matter who is  listening.

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You  respect your elders and
expect your kids to do the same.

        You  might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You'd  give your last dollar to
a friend.

        If  you got this email from me, it is because I believe that you,
like me,  have just  enough   TRUE  AMERICAN in  you to have the same
beliefs as those talked about in this email.

        God Bless the U   S  A  !   and may the U.S.A. BEGIN TO PRAISE 
AND
WORSHIP GOD the way we used to!!!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      =======================================================
       List services made available by First Step Internet,
       serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                     http://www.fsr.net
                mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
      =======================================================


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    =======================================================
     List services made available by First Step Internet,
     serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                   http://www.fsr.net
              mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
    =======================================================


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    =======================================================
     List services made available by First Step Internet,
     serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                   http://www.fsr.net
              mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
    =======================================================


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  =======================================================
   List services made available by First Step Internet,
   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                 http://www.fsr.net
            mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  =======================================================
          =======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
      _________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net
         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

    

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet, 
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
               http://www.fsr.net                       
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

  



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  =======================================================
   List services made available by First Step Internet, 
   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
                 http://www.fsr.net                       
            mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  =======================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20060811/50fbbd98/attachment-0001.htm 


More information about the Vision2020 mailing list