[Vision2020] Tony Goes to the Dark Side

[nickgier at adelphia.net]

Greetings:

Mothers are right most of the time.  My mother told me never to get into a pissing match with a skunk. (Yes, she was the vulgar one in the family.)  No matter how much ammunition you have, there is nothing to match the stench of a skunk.

Dale Courtney loves to call this list Venom2020, but it is he, Doug Farris, Doug Wilson (I'm a Banshee and God-hater according to him), Doug Jones, Donvovan Arnold, and others of this irk who have stunk up and poisoned this list far more than anyone else.  Courtney once confessed on this list that he just could not help himself from being nasty.  Tony's nastiness has come back in spades.

When Tony joined the Vision with both guns blazing, I thought I would try an experiment.  I resisted calling him "Toeknee" and tried to draw him into a civil debate about abortion. At first he responded nicely with an argument.  When I pointed out inconsistencies in his position, he became evasive.  I knew the experiment was going to fail when Tony refused to recognize his own deity as a person.  If God exists, then God is the supreme Person, but Tony would not fess up. I think he was smart enough to realize that he would have to logically concede that there were persons who were not human beings.

This is an unmoderated list, and I resent anyone telling me what is an appropriate topic for Moscow's future, which is intimately connected to America's future, and the world's for that matter.  

I happen to think that if Americans cannot have a civil debate about abortion, then we are in deep trouble.  A recent "New York Times" op-ed was entitled "The End of Persuasion."  The author bemoaned the fact that most Americans don't understand what a real debate is. My favorite example is a local Republican, whose only argument for Bush boils down to "shut up, he won the election."

I tried my best to save Tony from the Dark Side, but he is incorrigible.  I will no longer acknowledge his existence on this list.  His refusal to apologize for calling me a Nazi is a sure sign that he has crossed over irretrievably to the other side.

For those not interested in abortion, you can stop reading now, but I would like to fill out more clearly a consistent pro-life position that falls within current moral and legal boundaries.  We should respect the value of all life from the lives the lowest animals to the lives of moral and legal persons. 

The ancients had a better spiritual sense for this.  Before butchering their game, ancient hunters blessed the animals' spirits.  Buddhist farmers in Asia still make temple sacrifices to the insects they kill when they use pesticides on their fields.  Many Japanese couples (or single women) who make the momentous decision to have abortion pay a Buddhist priest for a ceremony to honor the life of the fetus.

Current laws dictate that we cannot inflict unecessary pain and suffering on animals.   This means that animals do not have a serious moral right to life, as persons do. Our laws allow the humane killing of animals for food and self protection.  I routinely removed and sometimes kill wasps from my home because members of my family have a severe reaction to wasp stings. 

And one last point.  I said that I would defend with my life the incredible feline that lies on my desk (she's there again today).  It goes without saying that I would have also defended the life of my daughter as a fetus from conception on even though she was not yet a moral and legal person.

The new South Dakota law would force a rape victim to carry her fetus to term.  This woman would have a far different view of that being than I did of my developing daughter.  That woman should have a right to an abortion and they should not be forced to be shown proganda designed by so-called "pro-lifers."

Yours for civil and unmoderated debate on the Vision,

Nick Gier