[Vision2020] Atwood Letter Rewritten
joekc at adelphia.net
joekc at adelphia.net
Tue Apr 4 16:01:35 PDT 2006
Last post of the day.
People have rights but they do not have the right to violate the rights of others. Freedom of speech and religion (Amendment I), for instance, do not protect the violation of the rights of others. For according to Amendment IX: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Thus, it is OK to be bigoted against the bigot (as long as this does not entail the violation of the bigot's rights). Verbal criticism is fine.
--
Joe Campbell
---- Area Man <areaman at moscow.com> wrote:
=============
Bigoted against bigotry?
I guess if you gotta be bigoted against something . . .
DC
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of joekc at adelphia.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 12:52 PM
To: Donovan Arnold
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com; DonaldH675 at aol.com; Saundra Lund
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Atwood Letter Rewritten
I've talked with Joan, Rose, et. al. and they are not "bigoted against
conservative Christians." They are against bigotry disguised as
religion.
--
Joe Campbell
---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
=============
Gary,
I don't have to speculate it is personal. Just ask them. Joan, Rose,
and her entire household & friends will just tell you flat out they are
bigoted against conservative Christians and have a personal ax to grind
with Wilson.
Please keep up your insightful posts, it saves me from writing so
much.
_DJA
"g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote: Donovan, Since
I don't have the ability to peer into the hearts and minds of the
principal players in this overblown imbroglio I am reluctant to ascribe
motive. However on the face of it there is all the appearance of
something other than wanting to be able to park in the two southernmost
rows of the Jackson St. parking lot at play here. If I had to guess I
suspect it has to do with personal animosities and not some grand
liberal, anti Christian agenda as some on this list may have speculated
on our behalf.
G. Crabtree
----- Original Message -----
From: Donovan Arnold
To: g. crabtree ; Saundra Lund ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Cc: DonaldH675 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Atwood Letter Rewritten
"To not do so, once again, makes this look like a personnel
crusade for you and your commandos."-- Gary Crabtree
But Gary, this is a personal crusade for her and her commandos. What did
you think it was about?
_DJA
"g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote: Ms. Lund,
What ever in the world are you talking about?
"Simply put, when one church is
> rightly denied exemption because it's competing with commercial
businesses
> and another is given a pass, that's discriminatory."
What "churches" are you referring to? My point with regard to tax
exemption
was that NSA like ALL schools is tax exempt no matter where they
are
located. This being the case, NSA's tax status was irrelevant to
the BOA. If
you believe that NSA should NOT be tax exempt, I would be able to
respect
your argument IF you were to apply the revocation to all
educational
institutions. (or even only religiously affiliated ones) When you
only
complain about NSA in this manner it makes it hard for me to
believe that
this isn't a personal matter and that all the posturing with
regard to
taxes, commercial frontage, and parking aren't just means to an
end.
With regard to Mr. Reed selling his restaurant to the U of I, my
only
objection would be that the university was wasting tax dollars on
an
unprofitable operation. If they want to lease the space from the
brothers
Bode, I couldn't care less. I seriously doubt the U of I would be
interested
in such a proposition.
As to your parking space breakdown, it still appears to me that
you are
massaging the numbers to make your case. With NSA at current
enrollment and
the commercial space unoccupied, parking is fairly commensurate
with other
spaces downtown and far better then when GTE was the occupant. I
am certain
that as GTE started to underutilize the building and finally left
altogether, surrounding properties/businesses came to see those
newly
available slots as theirs. Sadly this is not the case. No space in
that lot
"belongs" to any business. The fact that plenty of U of I students
park
there and walk to school proves this contention. As I said before,
if you
are serious about the parking problem explore the option of
meters, permits
or LID's. To not do so, once again, makes this look like a
personnel
crusade for you and your commandos.
G. Crabtree
P.S. Speaking of the commandos, what kind of mission do you
suppose "J.
Ford" was on today? Was it part of the even handed civic
mindedness that
typifies this whole debate?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Saundra Lund"
To: "'g. crabtree'" ;
Cc: ; "'Ted Moffett'"
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Atwood Letter Rewritten
> Hi Again Mr. Crabtree,
>
> You wrote:
> "Ms. Lund, I'm not sure what the asterisks on either side of
*you* implies
> but I would have been happy to have made your acquaintance.
Perhaps next
> time. Look for a middle aged, blue collar Neanderthal who sits
close to
> the
> door in case a hasty exit is required. (crowds make me a bit
edgy)"
>
> Ah-HA!!! So, you took one of my favorite seats! Save me one by
the door
> next time, if possible, because I'm not a huge fan of crowds,
either.
>
> The asterisks meant nothing more than I would have appreciated
meeting you
> to put a face with the name :-)
>
> And, I honestly mean no offense, but have you looked around? I
think a
> pretty fair number of men would fit the description you
provided, at least
> to my eyes ;-) Perhaps name tags would be a good idea ;-)
>
> You wrote:
> "From the top. Yes you are right. I was making broad
generalizations in my
> communication with Ms.Woolf . . . "
>
> Good, I'm glad we got that cleared up. FWIW, I'm glad you're
willing to
> accept my notes and the Trib article as accurate reflections of
what was
> actually said at the meeting.
>
> You also wrote:
> "If you would like to make a less discriminatory argument for
revoking tax
> exemptions for all schools and churches have at it."
>
> Sorry, I don't think there's anything at all discriminatory
about
> expecting
> our laws to be followed -- quite the contrary: it's
discriminatory for
> our
> laws not to be fairly and equitably applied. Simply put, when
one church
> is
> rightly denied exemption because it's competing with commercial
businesses
> and another is given a pass, that's discriminatory.
>
> You also wrote:
> "Zoning allows for educational institutions downtown with a
CUP."
>
> Yes, that's what's allowed *now*, but that's *not* what was
allowed in
> February, 2003 when NSA opened for classes on Main Street.
>
> You also wrote:
> "I'll worry about BSU hogging up Main St. with a satellite
campus when the
> danger is a trifle more immanent. "
>
> What about the UI? I'll admit I found the whole "we were never
concerned
> about the UI expanding downtown" nonsense to be amusing . . .
remember
> City
> staff and some (former) Council members blathering on & on about
how they
> had searched & searched unsuccessfully for proof that had ever
been an
> issue
> or concern, all the while ignoring the testimony of those with
first-hand
> knowledge? What a pathetic joke! It took lil' ol' me no more
than 5-10
> minutes of searching the Lewiston Tribune archives to find the
articles,
> something the City in its "exhaustive" searches failed to find.
Why do
> you
> suppose that is??? Could it possibly be the City was practicing
CYA for
> its
> role in the whole NSA mess?
>
> So, if Mr. Reed sells Basillio's to the UI, you'd have no
objection to it
> being removed from the tax rolls and classes being held there,
right?
>
> You also wrote:
> "I must admit I was shocked to hear Ms. Husky's seemingly
contradictory
> turn
> about of opinion with regard to the school and it's students."
>
> Huh? I think you must be confused. I don't want to speak for
Rose, but I
> think we have always been consistent in our position that while
neither of
> us would ever send our kids to NSA, we absolutely don't have a
problem
> with
> NSA in Moscow as long as it operates within the law and in an
appropriate
> location, which we don't believe is in the CBD.
>
> You also wrote:
> "As to the parking, forgive me if I do this from memory. I don't
have the
> stats or the meeting minutes available. My understanding is that
with the
> collage at its current enrollment, it is using parking at the
same level
> as
> any other commercial use. "
>
> Mr. Crabtree, in my last response to you I gave you the facts
that show
> your
> understanding is flatly incorrect. The facts I gave you (which
I'm
> including again) came from my notes:
> "No, sorry, wrong again. City staff made the point that NSA
*alone*
> accounts for about 7% of all auto trips on Main Street: the
average daily
> trip count is 4806 with NSA accounting for 332.2 of those trips.
One
> educational institution *alone* accounts for 7%, which is
clearly out of
> proportion and a higher use than other Main St. establishments.
Also,
> based
> on NSA's current enrollment and staffing, it requires 43 parking
stalls
> with
> an additional 11 required for the retail space. At NSA's maximum
> allowable
> enrollment and staffing, they will require 65 parking stalls
(plus 11 for
> the retail space). City staff stated that NSA requires 12-34
more parking
> stalls that other commercial uses of similar size."
>
> That is the information presented by City staff, and should you
think
> perhaps my notes are wrong, the following comes from the Daily
News'
> article:
> "A Community Development Department staff report shared at the
meeting
> stated NSA creates a need for 43-65 parking stalls, which is
12-34 more
> stalls than other commercial uses of the same size in downtown.
"
>
> My notes are more detailed than what appeared in the Daily News,
but the
> facts are the same and contrary to your understanding. Even at
its
> current
> enrollment, NSA uses *more* parking that other commercial uses
of the same
> size.
>
> Now, if you want to prove that City staff's numbers are wrong,
knock
> yourself out -- I'd be interested. Otherwise, your understanding
just
> isn't
> supported by the available facts.
>
> Finally, you also wrote:
> "As I have said before, this really isn't about parking (much
less the
> slippery slope of educational orgs.)"
>
> I would say the real issue is about the fair and equal
application of the
> law. I agree with Ted Moffett who wrote, "Selective enforcement
of the
> law
> is a cornerstone of bigotry and intolerance, with favors and a
"wink"
> handed
> out to those who conform to the values and ideology of those in
power."
> For
> whatever reason, the zoning laws where changed to prevent
non-commercial
> schools & educational institutions from locating in the CBD.
Then, when
> NSA
> steamrolls over the rules the rest of us have followed -- and
mind you,
> they
> made NO ATTEMPT to change the law first -- they get the wink & a
nod . . .
> and a blind eye turned to their lawbreaking not once, but twice.
When the
> illegality of that conduct is challenged, the rules are changed
solely for
> NSA's benefit. Talk about bigotry & intolerance . . .and it's
not coming
> from those you apparently would like to blame.
>
>
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
>
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
people to do
> nothing.
> - Edmund Burke
>
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2005,
Saundra Lund.
> Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision
2020 forum
> without the express written permission of the author.*****
>
>
>
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