[Vision2020] Re: Spiders, Humans, God & 'War

[Chasuk]

On 10/14/05, Tbertruss at aol.com <Tbertruss at aol.com> wrote:

>  Chas et. al.

>  Chas wrote:

>  I have never understood this sentiment.  In your illustration of the
>  spider, the spider at least registers that we exist (or so I imagine;
>  I've never been inside of a spider's mind, if it has one, to verify
>  that this is true).  in the case of humanity assessing God, we
>  necessarily invent Him out of whole-cloth, as He has left us no
>  inarguable evidence of His existence.  Determining the intentions and
>  actions of this possibly/probably fictional entity is the only avenue
>  we have available.  It is amazing in the sole sense that attempting to
>  fathom the attributes of an invisible pink unicorn is amazing;

>  Chas wrote the above in response to this:

>  This is like saying a spider understand the intentions of a human being
> doing quantum mechanics.  The spider simply is incapable of understanding in
> this manner, as human beings, speculatively speaking, very well may be
> incapable of understanding the intentions and mind of a being that created
> the entire universe

You omitted a paragraph preceding the one which you reproduced above. 
Both are important in order to understand my response.  Here is that
paragraph:

> I do not cease to be amazed by the hubris of human beings who imagine they can fathom  > the intentions and actions of a being (God) whom they assert created the entire universe,
> an act which implies a God-mind and capabilities beyond anything the human mind can     > conceive.

This is the sentiment which I have never understood, particularly the
"hubris" part.  It doesn't require hubris to speculate on the
intention or actions of a being whose existence we are only surmising
in the first place.  It requires only the same imagination that we
used to invent Him.  It would be possible hubris, if, like the spider,
we KNEW (and let's not get mired in epistemological debate here) that
God existed.

I used the word "registered" in my original response in an attempt to
make clear that I did not believe that the spider was actually aware
of, or conscious of, us as human beings.  I doubt that the spider
possesses anything resembling a mind.  I was merely following (I
thought) from your original analogy, and your analogy only works if
the spider at some level perceives that a mind exists which is a
primary causative agent.

To put it another way, discarding the analogy: if I knew that God
existed (some primary, _deliberate_ causative agent), then it would
possibly be hubris to try to divine His intentions or actions.  It
would also be human nature, which, as a human, I am unable to avoid. 
Hubris also implies pride, and I don't have to be feeling pride to
exercise (or be gripped by) a very human curiosity.  I don't know
about you, but I always try to understand that which makes me curious,
which always involves theorizing and attempted explanations, no matter
how off the mark they may be.   However, I definitely DO NOT know, nor
does any man, whether any primary, _deliberate_ causative agent (God)
exists, so even if this need to satisfy my curiosity could be called
hubris, it couldn't be called hubris here.