[Vision2020] Slavery, Wayne, & keely answers doug

Fri Nov 4 12:09:35 PST 2005

Michael,

I am sorry if you feel I have sullied you.  However, that you have been in this area for any length of time and claim not to be  aware of the cites I gave from Southern Slavery:  As It Was greatly strains both your credibility and raises serious questions about your connection to the real world.

More disturbing, and quite frankly, gives me great concern for your future, is that you would blindly accept and assert in your message at issue Wilson's word on the subject.  A more prudent, thoughtful person given Wilson's reputation for dishonesty would have found some way of investigating, possibly by reading a copy of Southern Slavery:  As It Was and/or any number of local articles/letters on the subject.  I believe the public library still has a copy of Wilson's tract.  Perhaps you are familiar with the story of the Catholic Hierarchy during the Dark Ages arguing about how many teeth there are in a horse's mouth.

In my message today, I noted that you blindly accepted Plantinga's word and attempted to use his apparently unresearched assertions on a matter clearly calling for data to make your point.  If this is your normal mode of operation, you are best advised to avoid those selling stock in silver mines, aluminum siding salespersons, and Douglas Wilson.

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michael 
  To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 11:08 AM
  Subject: [Vision2020] Slavery, Wayne, & keely answers doug

  Thanks for the comments Wayne; it has been a while since I have received such an enjoyable email--seriously.  Just a few thoughts:

  Wayne Writes:

  However, you make the claim that:

  "First, the 'not so bad' seems to be a misquote from the Wilson/Wilkins position. I think their position would be better stated as 'not so bad as we have been told by those who won the war'."

  Such a characterization of Wilson's views is not only fraudulently inaccurate, but deceptively oversimplified.  Here are just two quotes of many from Southern Slavery: As It Was that are counter-examples to your above claim:

  "...slavery was a harmonious institution, one characterized by racial affection and patriarchal benevolence."

  "...slave life was to them a life of plenty, of simple pleasures."

  Regardless of the truth or falsity of these statements, the Christ Church/Wilson position embodying the statements given the ordinary usage of the words therein, can not be honestly by any stretch of the imagination described as: 

  "...not so bad as we have been told by those who won the war"

  Me:

  I have never seen a copy of Southern Slavery: As It Was, so I can't say with any amount of certainty whether or not my interpretation of "not so bad" is perfectly consistent with its contents.  I was not thinking of this booklet when I wrote my comments. I was rather thinking of bits and pieces of conversations, tapes of lectures, live talks, blips in sermons, and the like for the last 9 years.  Although my knowledge of what a Wilson/Wilkins position might be on this issue might be 'rough and ready,' it is at the same time immune to misreading a couple statements; the overall tone, ethos, and trajectory would be in my bones.  One of the most influential experiences I had on this issue was a series of lectures given by Wilkins about 8 years ago in Portland; I recall some from the hosting church community of these lectures as very critically minded, and slow to accept some of Wilkin's views.  Since then, I think they have grown very fond of him. In any case, as an innocent bystander/observer,  I am fairly certain that the general flavor of how the position has been discussed around here for the last decade is more consistent with "not so bad as we have been told by those who won the war." If this is not the position of the Slavery As It Was, then I would be inclined to think, on the face of it, that this booklet misrepresents the broad discussion on these matters among us associated with Christ Church. But I don't know.  If anyone has a copy of this booklet to spare, my PO Box is 8282; I hear it has gone up in value over the last couple years.  In sum, I was merely attempting to express my own perception of the last 9 years; I was not attempting to represent the contents of the Slavery booklet. 

  Wayne Writes:

  I am afraid that in making such a statement you have irrevocably destroyed your thinly disguised pose as a humble person on an open-minded spiritual quest for all who have followed this thread.  You have now revealed to those who did not know it before that you are a committed Christ Church Apologist/Advocate.

  Me:

  I am very sorry if I gave the impression that I was on some sort of open-minded spiritual quest.  I did not intend to give that impression.  However, I thought I have been clear that I love Jesus and wish to defend Classical Orthodox Christianity, which includes Moses, the giraffes that made it on the ark, persecuted Christians of the 3rd century, Augustine, medieval popes, Martin Luther, and C.S. Lewis.  I don't know why anyone would want to be an "Apologist/Advocate" for some local "church."  

  Wayne Writes:

  But henceforth whenever you tell a lie, do not be surprised if you are called on it, and do be surprised, depending on the size/nature of the lie, that apt remarks about your integrity will be made.  [Your pose is also a form of dishonesty.]  Further, do not be surprised that many will consider that you are not a sincere Christian if you continue to lie and to pose as something you are not.  

  Hence, I think it best if you drop your pose from now on.  No one will now be fooled and it adds unnecessary words and distractive baggage to your defense of Christ Church dogma.

  Me:

  I agree that lying is bad.  But I'm afraid you are stuck with my pose; this is just me being me.  I've tried to change many times, but it just keeps on coming back.  

  I look forward to your further comments on the nature of induction; this was a fun subject to teach at the University for me.

  Yours,

  Michael Metzler

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _____________________________________________________
   List services made available by First Step Internet, 
   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
                 http://www.fsr.net                       
            mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20051104/dc999c37/attachment.htm